Resolving HPFP corn woes (black death/sticking spill valve)

[Enki]

It's about time for an update.

I've had the JBR cut PTFE scrapers for some time now (they are pretty much perfect; thanks @jbarone), but have had issues with my testing.

With the new set of o-rings I've bought, I couldn't convince the scraper to seat in the stock location. Rather than risk fucking up trimming the o-ring, I put the totally stock retaining nut back in and placed one scraper between the retaining nut and the internals collar, and lightly tightened the assembly.

That is when I started having fuel issues.

My idle psi is set to 750; I was only getting 400-450, and wouldn't make over 800 at higher rpms. Okay, too much drag I thought. I haven't been able to pull the pump until today to remove it due to a foot injury, but now that I have, I'm pretty pissed.

You see, back on the stock retaining nut with no scraper, my pressure started out slightly above commanded (which is fine and normal). As it sits in the driveway, it only makes 200 ish PSI (again, 750 commanded). As the engine warmed up, the max pressure went down.

If any of you have followed my e85 thread, this will sound familiar; it's the same exact symptoms I had when my stock PRV shit the bed. Only difference now is that I'm running the PTP 2150 valve.

As far as the pump goes, when I disassembled it just a few minutes ago, the whole assembly seemed to move just fine; the scraper actually expanded outwards more than it did inwards, so was basically doing nothing but preventing the retaining nut from seating all the way. With the car running, I can feel the internals clicking along happily inside the pump like normal; manually actuating them without the spring showed very little resistance aside from the initial o-ring rollover in the nut.

So basically, I'm fucked until I can get another PRV (preferably stock, as it's more likely to last a year's worth of driving rather than two weeks).

Because it will be a while until I can get this fixed, is there anyone that is willing to take over the scraper research? I will mail the couple dozen scrapers that are left at my cost to someone that will keep on top of this in my place.

[phate]

You know I'm down.

Sorry to hear about the latest, though. :/

[Enki]

Always the man of the hour, Phate. Thanks again to you for everything you've done for the community.

PM me your infos, and I'll get it shipped out today or tomorrow. Pretty sure you know where they go, but if not, I can explain it.

[mazdafreak]

@Enki....I have a stock hprv with ~37,xxx miles on it ((I'm running the 2150 now)).



I would do some testing, but I'm on vacation for next 2 weeks starting tomorrow.

[p057]

Originally Posted by silvapain You know how you can sometimes hear a buzzing, relay-type noise after you turn off your car? That's the PRV venting pressure at the rail as it expands (boils). Tapadatass

been wondering WTF that sound was for all five years of owning this car. Now i know! thanks!

[Enki]

Just talked to John; he's gonna warranty my valve if it's bad. Only thing is I have to send my current one in, and since my stock one has been in my glove box for a month, no bueno.

[SpeedSixxx]

i'm pooping green

[mazdafreak]

Well i have finally pulled my pump after who knows how long, and idk if im just lucky, but this vr1 oil i think is working very well so far!! I clean my spill valve every week just so its a piece of mind that i wont lose fuel pressure while driving anywhere...But everytime i have removed the spill valve, it was completely spotless and clean.....Lmk what u all think.

[phate]

looks good!

[mazdafreak]

Yup!! All looks very good since the oil switch! I also did recently run a can of seafoam ((On a full tank of 93 tho)).....I do want to drop the itfp and see what the filter looks like, but not ready to tackle that project just yet, since me have to save for a build ;-)


Im back on 93 for the time being, pretty sure my 02 sensor is going bad.....just cruising on highway, my afr dips down to 13.1....I have good vacumm, shouldnt be a leak or anything.

[slw97]

Any new info? I am trying to save up some cash for FP internals and to have phate get me a e85 tune started. My car has like 108k on it so it will be interesting to see how a higher milage speed 3 does with the black goo.. I am gonna run 2 or 3 cans of seafoam through the tank before I make the switch. After reading this thread as well as phate's 67pg long e85 thread from a year or so ago I am excited to jump in the pool and start helping with the movment to figure iut the black goo. I will probably change my oil from penz platinum to valvoline Vr-1 before I make the switch to e85, that is unless you all want me to stick with penz??

[Tadweezy]

Originally Posted by silvapain An article about GL-5 and GM's new 'dexos 1' oil, and how it relates to turbos and E85: GM's New Engine Oil: Use It Or Else! dexos Licensed oils: GM dexos information center

Nice Find Kind Sir

[Enki]

Maybe I'll try some dexos oil next oil change...I recall seeing that symbol/name on PP a while back.

[Mizzle]

Originally Posted by Enki Maybe I'll try some dexos oil next oil change...I recall seeing that symbol/name on PP a while back.

PP 5w-30 is on the list.
Strange that their Ultra isn't...

[Mfinlay04]

Has anyone tried QSUD? I'm running a 50/50 mix for over a year and never cleaned my spill valve on QSUD. Same base oil as PP but different add pack and much cheaper. I'm gonna run a UOA on my next oil change and see how its holding up. Might cleaned or at least take out my spill valve this weekend

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[Enki]

I never cleaned my spill valve on T6 using 50/50.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by mazdafreak Well i have finally pulled my pump after who knows how long, and idk if im just lucky, but this vr1 oil i think is working very well so far!! I clean my spill valve every week just so its a piece of mind that i wont lose fuel pressure while driving anywhere...But everytime i have removed the spill valve, it was completely spotless and clean.....Lmk what u all think.

how can you guys say these picts look good? you shouldn't have any of that grimey built up shit on the sleeve or the inside of the piston part. what % e85 are you running?

[phate]

Good is a relative term in this case lol.

[mazdafreak]

Yeah, it was very good....But I also didnt do an oil change for awhile, so oil was probably breaking down a bit....When oil was new, I had no problems and no build up.


I was running 100% E85

[Enki]

Relevant info:

CorkSport Mazda Performance ? Blog » Fuel Pump Comparison Part 1

Corksport's testing shows black death is oil (duh, but nice to have another confirmation)
@aaron_-01; said he was running Royal Purple oil for quite a long time with no issues on full E. Since the last test didn't go so well for me, and considering the UOA results I vaguely recall seeing on RP oil, I'm thinking I'll sit out that test.

[Mizzle]

Go for Pennzoil Ultra.

[mazdafreak]

Or kendells racing oil. Says its 85 compatible

[aaron_-01]

I ran 100% on royal purple for over 3k miles. I tore my pump apart before stepping down to 5050 due to the need/want for more inj duty cycle headroom since I was pushing 25 psi on stock turbo, the pump had a clear sticky film all over it. Took a little bit of scrubbing to get it off.

[Mfinlay04]

Kendall oils would be interesting. They sell them direct off their website with free shipping

https://www.hicorpinc.com/phillips66...spx?id=1057225

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[mrmonk7663]

What about Penzoil Platinum 5w40 EuroSpec...that looks real interesting.

[Mizzle]

Originally Posted by Mfinlay04 Kendall oils would be interesting. They sell them direct off their website with free shipping

Phillips66

Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 Full Synthetic Motor Oil - 6 quarts

also
Pennzoil Ultra 0W-40

p.s.
Link shit you talk about people.

[Mfinlay04]

Reading a little more and apparently VW has their own requirement for TDI engines. Now I know diesel and e85 is vastly different but this oil is suppose to prevent intake valve deposits as well as most of them being ester based oils.

http://www.goapr.com/products/motul_oil.html

http://microsites.audiusa.com/ngw/09..._1997-2012.pdf


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[Sum1UDidntC]

Is there no way to stop black death by adding something to the fuel or oil that will keep it from being created or keep it from building up?

[Enki]

On less than 1/4 tank, I tried a gallon of naphtha (which is what I use to clean my pump with, works wonders) and a full bottle of MMO.

Neither did anything to resolve the issue.

You have to get the right oil and it won't happen.

[Sum1UDidntC]

Do we know what the right oil is? And will it work for 100% e85?

[Enki]

Uh, have you read this thread?

Kings of Corn (HPFP + OIL)

[Sum1UDidntC]

Originally Posted by Enki Uh, have you read this thread? Kings of Corn (HPFP + OIL)

nope but I will now! thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

[Enki]

You should just read the entire E85 section of the site...It's not like it will take too terribly long.

[Sum1UDidntC]

Anyone ever tried this? I wonder if using this will keep black death at bay.

[Mfinlay04]

Lucas oil products aren't normally that great of quality and typically expensive. How much is the bottle? If it works maybe its worth it but I'd assume that bottle is probably 6-8 dollars.

Is anyone really running full e85 anymore? Since you'll run out of fuel on e85 with the ko4 is it even worth it? Does it provide any real power over 50/50 mix?

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[Enki]

There is no additive that has been tested to work, in any amount. It's the oil itself that shits up the pump.

I wonder when people will actually understand that.

[rtabagaboy]

Truth it is the oil. You can add 50% gasoline to clean out the pump . Maybe another very strong solvent (stronger than gas, or whatever is in gas that dissolves the oil that is not in ethanol) would clean the pump instead. Yes, a oil that can be dissolved better with only e85 is a solution to.

Basically three solutions as I see it.

1. Prevent oil from getting there (so far not able to do this)
2. Use a substance (like gasoline) that moves through the fuel pump and remove the oil
3. Find a suitable oil that can be dissolved with straight ethanol

[Sum1UDidntC]

Originally Posted by Enki There is no additive that has been tested to work, in any amount. It's the oil itself that shits up the pump. I wonder when people will actually understand that.

Its understandable that it is obviously the oil itself that is the problem but if there's a way to keep what's already proven to happen (black death) from actually staying there then the problem is solved a different way... as rtabagaboy; said, you can either find an oil that doesn't screw up or you can find a fuel additive that will keep it from accumulating. So there's not just one way to fix this problem (Although it would be nice to have a solution that lasts 3500 miles instead of 300 miles).

Has anyone actually tried the lucas oil stuff? Don't put it down before its been tested... who knows? It could be what we are looking for but no one gave it enough credit to even try. Not that I'm a fan of lucas oil or anything... I don't have any experience with it.

[Enki]

With less than a quarter tank of E85, I added not only a full bottle of MMO, but a GALLON of naphtha (which is what I use to clean the black/sticky deaths out of my pump) to my tank to try and prevent this from happening back when I was on full E. Guess what? I didn't even make it out of the driveway.

But again, this was covered in one of these threads, maybe even this one. Oil is extremely likely to be the *only* answer aside from simply running less E content.

[Mizzle]

I think I asked, but why can't we have the in-tank pump cycle for 30-60 seconds after shut-down to flush/cool the hpfp again?