Resolving HPFP corn woes (black death/sticking spill valve)

[slospeed]

Sub'd if u guys get to the point of 100% e85 I'm gonna have to buy ya some fine beer :-)

[Enki]

Just called Jet-Hot, Debbie said that the sample should have been here already and if it doesn't show up today to give them a call back (as they will likely send another).

[Enki]

Thanks to @az_jayc for picking up the sample from Jet-Hot today.

Will exchange it for a handi on Sunday, and will test on Monday, unless someone brings a hot plate to the meet on Sunday.

[HPFPUPGRADE]

Guys, on the black death. I am starting to see fuel pump cores coming back with lots and lots of gunk in the bottom of the retainer nut. Most of these are stock internals with a lot of miles on them with no suspect E85 being ran through the fuel pump (I hope not considering they are stock internals).

[az_jayc]

Originally Posted by Enki Thanks to @az_jayc for picking up the sample from Jet-Hot today. Will exchange it for a handi on Sunday, and will test on Monday, unless someone brings a hot plate to the meet on Sunday.

Sweeeeet I wasn't even expecting a handi!!!!! lmao

[Eric28243]

Ohhhh. You guys are awesome for doing this. I run 50/50 and I'm sick of my fuel trims always going haywire because I didn't get my mix spot on. Oh yeah, I wanna go faster faster too. :-)

[Mizzle]

Question: Do we have a return line to the tank?
If so, is it before or after the hpfp?
Like, if the tank pump is at full-tilt but the engine doesn't need it, does it run thru the hpfp and then out after the regulator/rail or?

[forcedinduktion]

starting at 14k....

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Originally Posted by Enki Thanks to @az_jayc for picking up the sample from Jet-Hot today. Will exchange it for a handi on Sunday, and will test on Monday, unless someone brings a hot plate to the meet on Sunday.

How did I miss this? Hhhmmmm...

Originally Posted by HPFPUPGRADE Guys, on the black death. I am starting to see fuel pump cores coming back with lots and lots of gunk in the bottom of the retainer nut. Most of these are stock internals with a lot of miles on them with no suspect E85 being ran through the fuel pump (I hope not considering they are stock internals).

I swapped my internals at 43k miles and there was a moderate amount if build up in that area that was similar but not the same as the e85 black death. I bought the car 38k miles and ran seafoam initially and at 2k mile intervals up to then. Also 99% sure the car had never been modded.

Originally Posted by SquishyMuffins Ohhhh. You guys are awesome for doing this. I run 50/50 and I'm sick of my fuel trims always going haywire because I didn't get my mix spot on. Oh yeah, I wanna go faster faster too. :-)

Do you put in matching gallons of each when you fill up?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[Enki]

Originally Posted by GLORIFIEDBOZO Do you put in matching gallons of each when you fill up?

Pretty much this. I no longer top the car off anymore; just go to the nearest 1/8th tank using 3 gallons per quarter tank rough guideline when filling up.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by HPFPUPGRADE Guys, on the black death. I am starting to see fuel pump cores coming back with lots and lots of gunk in the bottom of the retainer nut. Most of these are stock internals with a lot of miles on them with no suspect E85 being ran through the fuel pump (I hope not considering they are stock internals).

Oil leakby. I'd wager most of those pumps are seeing some 10w40. Fortunately, gasoline will keep the piston and collar clean, but unfortunately, ethanol will not.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Mizzle Question: Do we have a return line to the tank? If so, is it before or after the hpfp? Like, if the tank pump is at full-tilt but the engine doesn't need it, does it run thru the hpfp and then out after the regulator/rail or?

There is a return line from the fuel rail, but it doesn't go back to the tank. When the PRV is activated, it sends fuel back down the return line and into the HPFP. It's the steel line going into the bottom of the HPFP.

The ITFP speed is regulated by the low-speed resistor located on the driver's side inner fender, underneath the intake box (it's the big metal thing bolted to the rail).

[Mizzle]

Originally Posted by silvapain There is a return line from the fuel rail, but it doesn't go back to the tank. When the PRV is activated, it sends fuel back down the return line and into the HPFP. It's the steel line going into the bottom of the HPFP. The ITFP speed is regulated by the low-speed resistor located on the driver's side inner fender, underneath the intake box (it's the big metal thing bolted to the rail).

Oh.
Damn.

I was thinking we could put a relay on the pump (like a turbo-timer,) and have it run fuel through at shut-down to cool off the hpfp / prevent sublimation / prevent build-up.

Could that fix it?

[SamInAustinTX]

subbed.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Mizzle Oh. Damn. I was thinking we could put a relay on the pump (like a turbo-timer,) and have it run fuel through at shut-down to cool off the hpfp / prevent sublimation / prevent build-up. Could that fix it?

You know how you can sometimes hear a buzzing, relay-type noise after you turn off your car? That's the PRV venting pressure at the rail as it expands (boils).


Tapadatass

[Nataphen]

^I never knew them shits. Thanks for adding another cocktail party conversation starter to my vernacular.

<: Pulls up to friends' house and kills car.
Friends: "what's that buzzing noise?"
<: "well, let me just pop the hood right quick!"
<: Life of the party.

[Deldran]

Originally Posted by silvapain You know how you can sometimes hear a buzzing, relay-type noise after you turn off your car? That's the PRV venting pressure at the rail as it expands (boils). Tapadatass

Does that buzzing noise kinda sounds like its coming from the passenger side headlight area?

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by silvapain There is a return line from the fuel rail, but it doesn't go back to the tank. When the PRV is activated, it sends fuel back down the return line and into the HPFP. It's the steel line going into the bottom of the HPFP. The ITFP speed is regulated by the low-speed resistor located on the driver's side inner fender, underneath the intake box (it's the big metal thing bolted to the rail).

Actually the return line is soft (plastic line with yellow clip). The steel line is the high pressure line feed to the rail.


Cool info on the boiling. Makes perfect sense.

[Enki]

The boiling is what causes the deposition of the sticky film in the spill valve area of the HPFP, by the way. We may wind up needing some sort of TIG for the pump to help with this issue; but that may require machining of the pump body itself.

Time will tell...

[HPFPUPGRADE]

Originally Posted by silvapain You know how you can sometimes hear a buzzing, relay-type noise after you turn off your car? That's the PRV venting pressure at the rail as it expands (boils). Tapadatass

I have monitored the fuel pressure after shut down and I don't know if the rail valve is open. The rail valve shouldn't open under 1800 psi, the rail pressure is at 400 to 1000 psi after shut down. I have never seen go any higher than a 1000 psi.

I thought that the buzzing, relay-type noise was the throttle body going through its shut down event?

Originally Posted by Enki Oil leakby. I'd wager most of those pumps are seeing some 10w40. Fortunately, gasoline will keep the piston and collar clean, but unfortunately, ethanol will not.

I just don't see how oil could be leaking into the fuel pump housing. The pressure under the piston and collar is 60 to 80 psi. If the pump seal were to let oil it, it would surely have to let fuel out considering the fuel is under pressure but the oil is not.

I know that the black death has been sent out and chemically checked to be oil, I just don't know how its getting into the fuel pump.

[djuosnteisn]

What's the temp of the fuel in the rail? John, didn't you have some data on it?

[Enki]

Originally Posted by HPFPUPGRADE I just don't see how oil could be leaking into the fuel pump housing. The pressure under the piston and collar is 60 to 80 psi. If the pump seal were to let oil it, it would surely have to let fuel out considering the fuel is under pressure but the oil is not. I know that the black death has been sent out and chemically checked to be oil, I just don't know how its getting into the fuel pump.

I'd wager one of two ways:
1. The scraper wears slightly, allowing a small amount to slip past; this then gets partially scraped off on the release stroke of the piston and starts to build up.

2. Oil goes around the scraper and past the oring on the other side of the scraper, and is flushed out with fuel.


If 2 is correct, then the plan with RTV and the new scraper will probably fix the issue and there won't be ANY black death in the pump EVER again. I seriously hope this is the case.

[HPFPUPGRADE]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn What's the temp of the fuel in the rail? John, didn't you have some data on it?

Only surface temps, but I don't see how temps would open the rail valve. We can see pressure, and we all know that the rail valve is a mechanical part that opens at or around 1800 psi. If the fuel is boiling and the rail valve is opening, we would be able to see 1800 psi with the car off, key on.

Originally Posted by Enki I'd wager one of two ways: 1. The scraper wears slightly, allowing a small amount to slip past; this then gets partially scraped off on the release stroke of the piston and starts to build up. 2. Oil goes around the scraper and past the oring on the other side of the scraper, and is flushed out with fuel. If 2 is correct, then the plan with RTV and the new scraper will probably fix the issue and there won't be ANY black death in the pump EVER again. I seriously hope this is the case.

This could be possible. The next fuel pump I get that has black death on it I will perform a drag test on the seals to see if they are worn out and compare them to a new seal.

[Mizzle]

I'm guessing there's no way to do what I was thinking, then, eh? (running fuel thru after shutdown to cool it without boiling.)

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by HPFPUPGRADE I have monitored the fuel pressure after shut down and I don't know if the rail valve is open. The rail valve shouldn't open under 1800 psi, the rail pressure is at 400 to 1000 psi after shut down. I have never seen go any higher than a 1000 psi. I thought that the buzzing, relay-type noise was the throttle body going through its shut down event?.

i'll add in as well...

I've listened to the buzzing noise and it honestly does sound like it's coming from the TB area as well as the VCTS actuator area...

only buzzing noise I ever heard after shut down...

Originally Posted by HPFPUPGRADE Only surface temps, but I don't see how temps would open the rail valve. We can see pressure, and we all know that the rail valve is a mechanical part that opens at or around 1800 psi. If the fuel is boiling and the rail valve is opening, we would be able to see 1800 psi with the car off, key on. This could be possible. The next fuel pump I get that has black death on it I will perform a drag test on the seals to see if they are worn out and compare them to a new seal.

i've used e85 a few times on my stock internals...

the rule was I am still sending you back my stock fuel stuff when I install your stuff?

you send my other box out yet?

and thank you I got my care package!

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Mizzle I'm guessing there's no way to do what I was thinking, then, eh? (running fuel thru after shutdown to cool it without boiling.)

You'd have to convert it to a return style system (which correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it is).

[silvapain]

Perhaps I spoke with too broad of words.

There may be some noises that are coming from the TB. I know for a fact, though, that I have heard my PRV opening right after turning my car off, and I've sat with the KOEO after driving, and seen Fuel tail pressures climb significantly.


Tapadatass

[mrmonk7663]

If I start my car even just for 10 seconds, then turn it off, I still get noises (almost electronic sounding) from the TB area. This shouldn't be long enough to boil the fuel, so the PRV noise you hear may in fact be the fuel boiling, but I haven't heard it myself.

[HPFPUPGRADE]

Originally Posted by silvapain Perhaps I spoke with too broad of words. There may be some noises that are coming from the TB. I know for a fact, though, that I have heard my PRV opening right after turning my car off, and I've sat with the KOEO after driving, and seen Fuel tail pressures climb significantly. Tapadatass

The only way it would be possible for the PRV to open would be from fuel pressure or a failing PRV. If you have fuel pressure climbing to 1800 psi with the key off, I would check your rail sensor for a possible loose connector or bad sensor.

Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by Enki You'd have to convert it to a return style system (which correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it is).

Even a return style system wouldn't cool the fuel inside the fuel pump. It would cool the head, but the rail, hard line and fuel pump are all on the high side of the fuel system, and this is the side that would be getting all the heat. The return system cannot get cool fuel into that side.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by HPFPUPGRADE Even a return style system wouldn't cool the fuel inside the fuel pump. It would cool the head, but the rail, hard line and fuel pump are all on the high side of the fuel system, and this is the side that would be getting all the heat. The return system cannot get cool fuel into that side.

And? This thread is about stopping the sticky and black death from building up, not squeaky PRVs. Cooling the fuel pump with fuel could very possibly fix both issues when the car is shut down; meaning, it is a possible solution to both problems.

[Ziggo]

There wont be any fuel flow through the pump with a return system. The closest you could put a return is the inlet on the HPFP. Everything forward of that is going to be deadheaded.

[Enki]

If you T'd off the return from the rail fuel would flow around that stalk area, and potentially pull a little bit of heat from the pump at least.

[HPFPUPGRADE]

Originally Posted by Enki If you T'd off the return from the rail fuel would flow around that stalk area, and potentially pull a little bit of heat from the pump at least.

That is not where the heat is coming from. It could potentially help the pump housing, but the fuel that is causing the black death will not see any "flow" because of the system design.

[Ziggo]

If you T'd off the high pressure side you would have to have a solenoid or similar to make sure it isn't bypassing with the motor on, we don't have a ton of extra flow to play with to be sending it down a bypass under operation.

[Enki]

I meant the return line that goes back into the HPFP; the one with the yellow clip.

[Enki]

Thanks again to @az_jayc for picking up the sample. Shit looks good and fades out towards one end, which will make for a great test (the un-coated edge should hopefully get sticky while the coated edge does not).

Pending arrival of sacrificial hot-plate for testing, and arrival of the fuel pump I paid for over a week ago (not sure if it even shipped yet) before any more progress can be made on my end.

[HPFPUPGRADE]

Originally Posted by Enki I meant the return line that goes back into the HPFP; the one with the yellow clip.

There is still no flow through the fuel pump. Both lines meet at the head of the fuel pump and will not get deep enough into the fuel pump to cool the area where the black death occurs.

[Enki]

UPDATE:

Secondary pump showed up today; it appears to be a re-manufactured pump, but came with the hard line and cam cage (the part the pump actually bolts to that also bolts to the head). Can't really beat that for $170 shipped.

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to swap the internals out today, as I will be visiting urgent care for possible pneumonia (yay!). At any rate, still waiting for the hotplate, and I also need to know how to fully disassemble the spill valve (can't quite figure out how to get the retaining clips out to pull the barrel assembly, if that's what it's called).

[phate]

Originally Posted by Enki UPDATE: Secondary pump showed up today; it appears to be a re-manufactured pump, but came with the hard line and cam cage (the part the pump actually bolts to that also bolts to the head). Can't really beat that for $170 shipped. Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to swap the internals out today, as I will be visiting urgent care for possible pneumonia (yay!). At any rate, still waiting for the hotplate, and I also need to know how to fully disassemble the spill valve (can't quite figure out how to get the retaining clips out to pull the barrel assembly, if that's what it's called).

You just push the center section down. Meaning apply pressure on the connector side, and it will pop out ~.125", and the c-clips will slide right out. From there, you push the center section out the other way, towards the connector side.

[SofaKingAwesome]

Originally Posted by Enki UPDATE: Secondary pump showed up today; it appears to be a re-manufactured pump, but came with the hard line and cam cage (the part the pump actually bolts to that also bolts to the head). Can't really beat that for $170 shipped. Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to swap the internals out today, as I will be visiting urgent care for possible pneumonia (yay!). At any rate, still waiting for the hotplate, and I also need to know how to fully disassemble the spill valve (can't quite figure out how to get the retaining clips out to pull the barrel assembly, if that's what it's called).

Man the fuck up and start testing.

J/k hope you feel better. Had a bout with "Walking pneumonia" that I didn't take seriously and ended up with full blown pneumonia and a hospital stay. Shit was no joke.