Resolving HPFP corn woes (black death/sticking spill valve)

[Enki]

Originally Posted by SofaKingAwesome Had a bout with "Walking pneumonia" that I didn't take seriously and ended up with full blown pneumonia and a hospital stay. Shit was no joke.

This is why I'm going in. I can't afford the long downtime with my job (boss won't care, but I do).

[SofaKingAwesome]

take your time. I was still wrestling back then and pushed myself through a two day tournament, ended up being down for 10 days instead of a few.

[J-Liss]

subbed

[HPFPUPGRADE]

Quantaseal Nano Protective Coating

Something we just picked up. I am going to test a few parts and see how it works out. Seems like its pretty good stuff and its chemical resistant.

Enki, or ??? let me know if you want me to coat a few parts for free.

Thanks,

John

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by HPFPUPGRADE Quantaseal Nano Protective Coating Something we just picked up. I am going to test a few parts and see how it works out. Seems like its pretty good stuff and its chemical resistant. Enki, or ??? let me know if you want me to coat a few parts for free. Thanks, John

I can send you a spare spill valve to coat.

[HPFPUPGRADE]

Originally Posted by silvapain I can send you a spare spill valve to coat.

The coating would work better on the retainer/nut vs the spill valve. I don't think the spill valve would be a good candidate for this, but maybe.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by HPFPUPGRADE The coating would work better on the retainer/nut vs the spill valve. I don't think the spill valve would be a good candidate for this, but maybe.

That's the part that is causing all the trouble for us on high Ethanol concentrations.


Tapadatass

[HPFPUPGRADE]

How are they coating the spill valve? You will not be able to get to the control pin or inside where it sits. Are you talking about the rail valve? Or spill valve?

[phate]

The solenoid plunger comes out, so it could all be done pretty easily.

[Mizzle]

I'm surprised it took so long, but why's he banned this time?

[mrmonk7663]

WTH happened now lol?

[SamInAustinTX]

+1

[Enki]

ZOMG PTPJOHN!!!!one!!1

Christ, it isn't relevant.

Keeping on topic, I sent a message to that Quantaseal place explaining the situation and requesting a sample (on my dime of course).

[steven10]

Y Y Y Y Y Y

[abiezerf]

Wtf why did John get banned?

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk

[silvapain]

There's a thread about John's banning. Do a search.

Back on topic people.

@Enki, I have a spare HPFP if you need one for testing. The spill valve is questionable on it though.

Tapadatass

[Enki]

The one I ordered showed up yesterday. Not sure how "good" it is yet, but time will tell.

[SofaKingAwesome]

I'm groaning the next fucker who asks. Once Enki's back up and healthy hopefully this will go somewhere.

[Enki]

I'm swapping the pump on my car by Saturday afternoon, and will be doing the test then as well. Even if it takes me all day to do it.

[Enki]

Just got off the phone with the people that make Quantaseal; they only really sell it and don't do the coating themselves, which would explain why they never answered my email.

Unfortunately, 1 pint (clear liquid) is $450... but that should be enough to do over a hundred pumps IMO.

I'm feeling pretty decent so may get around to testing the Jet-Hot sample this afternoon (as work cuts out early today anyways).

[phate]

Originally Posted by Enki Just got off the phone with the people that make Quantaseal; they only really sell it and don't do the coating themselves, which would explain why they never answered my email. Unfortunately, 1 pint (clear liquid) is $450... but that should be enough to do over a hundred pumps IMO. I'm feeling pretty decent so may get around to testing the Jet-Hot sample this afternoon (as work cuts out early today anyways).

It seems quantaseal isn't really designed for wear-and-tear items, more like a coating just to keep stuff off, lol. Did you ask them if they thought it would benefit our situation?

[Enki]

Well the fact that I'd have to drop $450 to test kind of removes them from the running in the first place. Also seeing the video where they spray the entire body of a car with the stuff leads me to believe you are correct in your assessment, Phate.

[Enki]

MAJOR UPDATE:

Testing completed; or as complete as it's gonna get for now. I didn't quite get through the entire gallon of e85 due to hilarious autoignition fireball that shot forth from the pan. As a side note, this is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever done.

The kit:


The sample:


The testing:


Testing (click for video):

This video was taken towards the end of testing; the burner is on high as I found out that the capability of e85 to pull heat out of the surrounding container meant that just 15 seconds after removing it from the burner (which was on medium) I could hold the pan in the palm of my hand with no ill effects. It was fucking incredible.

After first test (the yellow stuff is what e85 boils down to, literally; seems to be an oily substance but is NOT sticky):

The interesting thing here is that the sample came out of the first and second tests just like it went in; also, there was no sign of sticky in the pan after either test as well, just a thin, oily film.

Third test with a couple drops of Rotella:

I found it interesting that when I tried to mix the oil with the e, I only wound up breaking the oil up into smaller droplets which would not mix with the fuel.

Oil doesn't like being in e; please excuse the sound, have bronchitis and a sinus infection and can barely breathe (click for video):


Strangely, there was no sticky and the oil did not look to be affected at all; it was just chillin in droplet form in the pan still.

After the third test I went for broke and added a capful of Rotella to the pan, and THEN added the e so that I could get a nice coverage of the pan and sample with the oil; I figured the boiling action would break up the oil into small droplets, and that is pretty much exactly what happened.

As it turns out, leaving the burner on high for more than 15 minutes leads to an inevitable fire; I seriously doubt I hit the autoignition point of the e; it is more likely that some splashed out and touched the burner or something. Who knows?

After the fire, towel still smoking (note: ethanol vapors will go right through a towel and stay on fire, lol!):


Yes, it was still smoking/glowing. I tried to get pictures of it on fire, but fuel fire in front yard is a little more important. Also, the contents of the pan looks milky due to me having thrown a bit of water into it.

And now for the most interesting photo of them all:


The really interesting thing about this last photo is the fact that the clean looking area in the red circle is the only place that isn't sticky. With the amount of oil in the pan through the last three test pours (all done live with a hot burner which is a very very fucking bad idea), I had a pretty good idea that the splotches on the sample and pan were actually the oil. It is likely that the oil breaks down slightly at lower than normal temperatures when exposed to the ethanol fuel; this assumption (let's face it, it's an assumption) is based on the fact that boiling the fuel out on the first three tests yielded NO abnormal result (no sticky) whatsoever, and only after the significant quantity of oil was added to higher temperatures was the sticky substance seen.

It is also worth noting that not once did any ethanol boil off of the sample plate, as it simply would not get hot enough. This is visible in the boiling video where you can see the fuel actually boils AROUND the sample piece instead of off of it (and it was touching the pan on that red-circled area the whole time).

TLDR:
We may be able to fix both sticky and black deaths (which appear to be related) by finding an oil which is consumed/dissolved/totally unaffected by e85 fuel.

[Nataphen]

Ideas on such an oil? Is there an oil made that is said to be compatible with e85?

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Nataphen Ideas on such an oil? Is there an oil made that is said to be compatible with e85?

From earlier in the thread (page 2, actually):

Originally Posted by GLORIFIEDBOZO Just curious but what but what kind of oil are you guys running? ... I only ask because I had no issue's until I switched to rotella ... Gonna swap back to the royal purple I was using before, and see what happens. Shot in the dark, but why not.

Another thing:

Originally Posted by silvapain Anytime I would do high RPM at low load my spill valve would stick on E85. MAF cals, revving to show off my 2-step, etc.

I engine brake alot. ALOT. High rpm likely allows for more oil to bypass the seals/scraper orings as the oil is more likely to go around something or cause a seal to stretch when the hydraulic (scraping/surface) forces are higher.

If this is the case, the PTFE scraper combined with a solid "Right Stuff" silicone gasket goop seal behind it will likely fix the issue 100% (both the black death AND the sticky icky).

[Nataphen]

Nothing conclusive yet though. After we get a few guys on some different oils, hopefully we can get some answers. Then, I just have to find a damn e85 station closer than 45 minutes away.

[phate]

Jay and I were recently discussing oils and he did come across one marketed for flex fuel vehicles.

@GLORIFIEDBOZO

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Sorry havent been on here much lately, been busy at work and home. Will jump on my computer in the morning and post a couple of things I found

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[mrmonk7663]

I found this...it is an additive for conventional oil specifically formulated (so they say) for E85. Product Page-ATF, lubricants, oil, motor oil, lubricants, synthetic, synthetic motor oil, additives zinc additives, boost additives Scroll down and its called Midco's Flex Pac™ Ultimate Engine Protection for Flex fuel cars and trucks! Someone should test this stuff.

[Enki]

I've been reading up on these flex fuel oils/additives. It seems they all pertain to the formation of acids due to water content in the fuel.

That said, I live in Arizona, and had serious black death problems well before the humidity here went into the double digits. Also, my testing from earlier showed no effect on the oil boiled in eth on moderate heat, only on the oil boiled at the highest temperature that the hotplate could put out, and likely this heat is what is causing the oil to gum up, not the fuel. I am sure regular gasoline would clean most of this stuff off pretty easily, and I will be testing naphtha as a cleaning agent to see if it behaves the same on both the sample and on the pan I boiled the fuel in.

[mrmonk7663]

I say order a bottle of that additive, or something similar. Combine it with the rotella oil, then repeat the test you did tonight and see if anything changes.

[Enki]

Only if you bring the marshmallows.

Lol

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Alright, so as I mentioned before, I didn't seem to have gunk issue's until I swapped oil from Royal Purple 5-30 to Rotella T-6 5-40. Since I got a bad oil sample back from the RP, I decided to go with something different. As clint mentioned earlier while looking for a new oil I started reading some labels, and found that on the back of the Valvoline VR1 full racing synthetic it said recommended for gas and alcohol applications. The other oil that I found was the Ford Motorcraft SynBlend 5-30, on the back it said recommended for use with E85 vehicles using 5-30. I found in a few place saying that as long as it's GL-5 full synthetic it should be fine, however the MC is a synblend. Found a couple of letters from Brad Penn Oil to it's distributors, the first concerning gumming in 2 stroke motors using E85 and the second a follow on concerning passenger vehicles.

Edit: I'm sure most of you know but for those who don't, Rotella T-6 falls under the CI-4 catagory

Currently running 93, but will most likely pull the pump, clean it and swap to full E85 on my next tank to see how the VR1 does with it.

I'm attaching the API motor oil guide, both letters from Brad Penn Oil, and the VR1 synthetic product info(it no longer comes in 5w-30 in API SL catagory). Monday I also plan on email/calling the 2 guys from the bottom of the Penn letter, Valvoline, RP and Ford parts to see what I can find.

I also found some references on Bob the Oil guy forums, but after reading what those guys thought about E85, I trust what they had to say about as much as I trust my first wife not to lie to me.

Edit 2: I don't think the bad oil sample was due to the Royal Purple, I was just a bit hesitant when it first came back. If someone else would try it, the Motorcraft (if they mind using a synblend), or something else they can find, maybe Redline, and let the rest of us know how it works out that would be great.

Edit 3: Also going to contact Midco and see if I can't get some more info on their product.

[Enki]

Hmm I'll see if I can locate some of this newfangled Shell Helix stuff for my next change.

[silvapain]

If we determine a few different oil brand to test out, I'm willing to be one of the guinea pigs.

[silvapain]

An article about GL-5 and GM's new 'dexos 1' oil, and how it relates to turbos and E85:

GM's New Engine Oil: Use It Or Else!

dexos Licensed oils:

http://www.gmdexos.com/licensedbrand...sedbrands.html

[Enki]

The Helix Ultra I'm going to try to find is on the list of dexos 1 oils.

[silvapain]

Hell, Mobil1 5W-30 is on the list and is readily available at AutoZone. Think I'll pick up a few quarts and try it out.

[Mizzle]

I thought Mobil had piss-poor oil reports tho?

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Mizzle I thought Mobil had piss-poor oil reports tho?

Good point. Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30 is also on the dexos 1 list and is GF-5.