Resolving HPFP corn woes (black death/sticking spill valve)

[Spectrum24x]

Sorry if it has Ben discussed but has anyone tried pre-mixing with their e-85 to lubricate the hpfp consistently? When I had my rx-7 we put 2-cycle engine oil in our gas tank like half an oz for every gallon of gas and it keeps the rotor seals lubricated. Maybe this would work for the hpfp on our cars!?

[Enki]

Again (third or fourth time in this thread?), this isn't a problem with lubrication. This is a problem with ethanol being unable to clean out coked up oil.

[mrmonk7663]

Guys, my car had 18k miles on it and while I have consistent fuel pressure, my rail valve was dropping pressure with a warm engine, key on, engine off. I took out the stock rail valve and there is plastic in the tip of it...from the factory, some kind of fitting or something. In any event, as soon as I took it out the black plastic turned white, which is typical of things that contact e85. My point being that it is possible the e85 is messing with the rail valve as well.

[SofaKingAwesome]

@BOTTLEFED08 why don't you share your findings on Yaz's 100% e85 pump lol

[BOTTLEFED08]

Ill get the pics posted soon.. But for now, lets just say it was a freakin mess with what we had to clean in order for the car to even idle at proper pressure.. His relief valve is shot now too, doing that this weekend. If you want a 50/50 or 100% e85 tune, be prepared to clean the hpfp at least 3 times a month.. if not, your asking for trouble later on.

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 Guys, my car had 18k miles on it and while I have consistent fuel pressure, my rail valve was dropping pressure with a warm engine, key on, engine off. I took out the stock rail valve and there is plastic in the tip of it...from the factory, some kind of fitting or something. In any event, as soon as I took it out the black plastic turned white, which is typical of things that contact e85. My point being that it is possible the e85 is messing with the rail valve as well.

No issue's with mine, still black and I believe I have the second highest miles on 100% E85(13kish)? @silvapain may have me beat not sure.

Originally Posted by BOTTLEFED08 Ill get the pics posted soon.. But for now, lets just say it was a freakin mess with what we had to clean in order for the car to even idle at proper pressure.. His relief valve is shot now too, doing that this weekend. If you want a 50/50 or 100% e85 tune, be prepared to clean the hpfp at least 3 times a month.. if not, your asking for trouble later on.

Confused, but I thought this is why this thread existed? Also, I believe the cleaning consistency has varied for every 100%er and I don't recall any 50%ers having issue's unless this is a new development.

[Enki]

Sounds distinctly like a shot scraper to me; if it has to be cleaned that often on 50/50, then too much oil is getting past.

[mazdafreak]

Been on 100% 85 on the vr1 for almost 500 miles......I have only cleaned the spill valve twice, because I was going out with a few buddies racin and shit, and didn't want to take a chance with spill valve taking a shit.......but no problems so far....but I do believe the pump needs a cleaning soon...will be takin apart this weekend.

I do have like flasks of lil debri when spill valve comes out....and that lil pin hole where spill valve sits has like brown stain around it too, guessing from oil, but wipes right off....pics up this weekend hopefully.

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

I didn't really think about it, but since my fuel pump is out of my car anyway, I supposed I could take it apart and see how it looks. 600 more miles of E85 before I yanked the engine. Get some pics up tomorrow.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by GLORIFIEDBOZO No issue's with mine, still black and I believe I have the second highest miles on 100% E85(13kish)? @silvapain may have me beat not sure. Confused, but I thought this is why this thread existed? Also, I believe the cleaning consistency has varied for every 100%er and I don't recall any 50%ers having issue's unless this is a new development.

You have me beat on mileage right now (I'm at ~10K), but it'll be a race to see who's ZZB is back up and running on corn first.

[mazdafreak]

Since you guys are pulling/rebuilding the motor, u should replace the fuel line, then cut the one that came off car open, and see what it looks like inside., see if anything is happeneing to fuel lines.......just sayin.

[mazdafreak]

Finally took apart the pump today ((except spill valve since it has been cleaned the other day)).....And got some pics for everyone.......My shit had some nasty slugg oil build up in spots, as you will see in the pics.

This has been about 600 miles on full 85 with vr1 oil ((about 70 miles on t6 before i switched oils))

@Enki @GLORIFIEDBOZO @phate @silvapain





((This part accidently got rolled in some shit on the floor, only oil build up on this))







Q-Tips show was i actually wiped out of the pump.

[09speedaddict]

Valvoline Racing VV205 Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil

Order online through jegs and you get a $1 rebate per quart(up to 12qts). Should come out to $5 a qt. I don't know how much shipping is however. Good through 5-31-12

Edit: Shipping is free for fedex ground but there is a handling charge of $10! Bullshit. Comes out to $5.82/quart/ if buying 12qts. Decent price I guess. Also, it's a mail-in-rebate... gay

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Sorry guys I have been lazy about pulling my pump apart, I will try to do it this weekend. My engine is packed up in rubbermaid tubs currently so I will have to find it.

[mazdafreak]

So far, I think the oil is working....well for me.


I have never had the black death....you think its cause I have a cpe pump? Since they are different then just internals.....I think I read somewhere they are 85 compatable with the cpe pump.

[ak_spray]

Originally Posted by mazdafreak So far, I think the oil is working....well for me. I have never had the black death....you think its cause I have a cpe pump? Since they are different then just internals.....I think I read somewhere they are 85 compatable with the cpe pump.

I've never heard that but would like to know that little tidbit of info if its true. Maybe Sander @www.cp-e.com can help us with that question.

[raptorous_g4]

Originally Posted by Spectrum24x Sorry if it has Ben discussed but has anyone tried pre-mixing with their e-85 to lubricate the hpfp consistently? When I had my rx-7 we put 2-cycle engine oil in our gas tank like half an oz for every gallon of gas and it keeps the rotor seals lubricated. Maybe this would work for the hpfp on our cars!?

My newest findings.. I also thought about premixing so I tested with some oils I had. from my past life racing IJSBA Jetski's Yamaha 2R, KLOTZ Benol, Amsoil Intercepter, Rotax XPS mineral oil. I added 8 Oz on a full tank of each oil separately. Before this I was no longer seeing any sticking valve or black death so I was trying to see if this would trigger the occurance.

- Yamaha 2R - NO

- Klotz - NO Exhaust had a nice smell like my race boat used to though

- Amsoil - NO

- ROTAX - YES and worse than Ive ever seen it. Car completely died FP was around 30psi and here's the odd part. After I cleaned the SPV it would only run normal PSI for a few minutes which ive never had happen before. I'm guessing the HPFP internals them selves got coated with the stickyness (technical term) as well. Ipoured seafoam into the spv housing so it would seep into the HPFP.. From a dry tank engine light on, 0 miles on trip estimator 4 gallons of 110 VP race fuel and 2 gallons of toluene. Ive found that if you want to clean the fuel system properly and completely this way works like no other.

I am now completely confident that what is in the fuel or what you add to the fuel is causing the gunking or sticky coating not the oil or the the lines or seals. Adding toluene or xylene is always an option to keep things clean in addition to being 121 octane. For now its no additives and 100% E85 again. If I run into another sticky valve Ill post again. for now Pennzoil Ultra and a clean fuel system should be good for a while.

[phate]

Originally Posted by raptorous_g4 - ROTAX - YES and worse than Ive ever seen it. Car completely died FP was around 30psi and here's the odd part. After I cleaned the SPV it would only run normal PSI for a few minutes which ive never had happen before. I'm guessing the HPFP internals them selves got coated with the stickyness (technical term) as well. Ipoured seafoam into the spv housing so it would seep into the HPFP.. From a dry tank engine light on, 0 miles on trip estimator 4 gallons of 110 VP race fuel and 2 gallons of toluene. Ive found that if you want to clean the fuel system properly and completely this way works like no other. I am now completely confident that what is in the fuel or what you add to the fuel is causing the gunking or sticky coating not the oil or the the lines or seals. Adding toluene or xylene is always an option to keep things clean in addition to being 121 octane. For now its no additives and 100% E85 again. If I run into another sticky valve Ill post again. for now Pennzoil Ultra and a clean fuel system should be good for a while.

I'm not seeing how this rules out the seal, and it may actually strengthen the argument for oil causing the issue. You've added another variable, here, with the additive.

Enki's testing, and my mass spec reading of the black gunk, both point to oil as being the culprit.

[Enki]

FYI the new scrapers are being cut (Thanks @jbarone), and once I have them I'll finish the tank of 50/50 and then do half a tank of full on e (in case it still goes south quickly like it always does) and break the pump back down after a full tank (if it makes it that far) to see what's up.

Some of you may remember from my hilarious e85 boiling test that I didn't have any sticky at all until I started adding oil to the fuel a couple of drops at a time. *Fingers crossed*

Also, lighter fluid (naphtha) works EXTREMELY well for removing both the sticky and the black death (and you don't need much).

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

@Enki I am assuming you are trying to do something like this? This is a pump from APR another VW aftermarket company. I stumbled across this looking for something else.

[Enki]

No, I'll actually be replacing the stock scraper with the PTFE one from JBR and instead of using the cheesy oring (which has tons of room to float around in there) I will be filling it with RTV; the end result should be a total seal in the retaining nut (which is where the scraper is located; look inside the nut on the threaded side).

[mazdafreak]

About 300 more miles since cleaning the pump....no problems just yet...not even the spill valve...ill put about 700 more miles on pump till I pull and clean again.

[raptorous_g4]

Originally Posted by phate I'm not seeing how this rules out the seal, and it may actually strengthen the argument for oil causing the issue. You've added another variable, here, with the additive. Enki's testing, and my mass spec reading of the black gunk, both point to oil as being the culprit.

Im not ruling out the oil or anything else Im just saying in my case the only thing I did after polishing the internals is change to Pennzoil ultra and replaced the SPV O ring with a VITON rubber one. On 100% e85 I get no problems now. I did my additive test for extra lubrication and saw black sticky for the first time when doing so. After a tank of race fuel and toluene I have put 3 tanks of E85 only through and am still good. Maybe the Racefuel / Toluene clears any remnants of bad gas or additives that could be causing the sticky film. I Pulled SPV earlier and its spotless after 800 Miles on Pure E85.

[phate]

Originally Posted by raptorous_g4 Im not ruling out the oil or anything else Im just saying in my case the only thing I did after polishing the internals is change to Pennzoil ultra and replaced the SPV O ring with a VITON rubber one. On 100% e85 I get no problems now. I did my additive test for extra lubrication and saw black sticky for the first time when doing so. After a tank of race fuel and toluene I have put 3 tanks of E85 only through and am still good. Maybe the Racefuel / Toluene clears any remnants of bad gas or additives that could be causing the sticky film. I Pulled SPV earlier and its spotless after 800 Miles on Pure E85.

Well then, I think this doubly reinforces the idea that oil is seeping past the OE seal. Maybe correct me here, but this is how I'm interpreting what you're telling us:

1) Change seal
2) Change Oil

= No Black gunk after you do these

3) Add mineral oil

= Black gunk is seen

We know that gas cleans the system, so that's not a new development. Your findings point back to either the seal or type of oil causing issue. I'm more inclined to think it's the seal.

PS - This is the first you've mentioned changing the seal in this thread. Any more info on this?

[Tokay444]

At the risk of sounding like a total noob for not reading the thread, since there is the potential for oil to be getting past the seal, is there not also the potential for fuel to get past it as well? Considering the fuel is as a FAR greater pressure, could this be more the cause for our fuel dilution rather than cylinder washing?

[phate]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 At the risk of sounding like a total noob for not reading the thread, since there is the potential for oil to be getting past the seal, is there not also the potential for fuel to get past it as well? Considering the fuel is as a FAR greater pressure, could this be more the cause for our fuel dilution rather than cylinder washing?

Yeah, probably. I've had the black gunk since I first started running E85, but I've never had fuel dilution issues. I get my oil analyzed every other oil change, and it hasn't been significant in the past 80k miles.

[Enki]

The thing is the fuel pressure isn't that great behind the piston; in all likely hood, it's probably at negative pressure at the top of the stroke (hence the not-insignificant presence of oil in the retaining nut when there's a scraper AND seal to prevent it from building up in the first place); I'm thinking there's a reason that the little hole exists in the side of the internals collar aside from lubrication of the internals.

This also kind of explains why my internals were pretty damn clean when I only had the dual seals and the one o-ring in place of the scraper for a little while on my pump; it could be that the little bit of fuel leaking by would keep the oil out of the pump.

See here for reference:
Off the wagon (pink elephants and unicorns)

If memory serves (I've been terrible at updating the thread), the pump looked the cleanest it's ever been with just the oring and seal vs scraper and seal.

[mazdafreak]

Damn it! Spill valve took a shit cruising on the highway going to work...cruising at 60psi isn't fun.


Can I test out the new stuff jbr makes for the pump too?

[Enki]

I'd say yes, but I'm not exactly sure how this will work out and the possibility exists that keeping the oil completely out of the pump is a bad thing. I don't know about you but I don't have to drive my car to work every day; it's also worth noting that the process I'm going to use to mod the pump will require it being completely off the car for more than a day (to cure).

After I've tested the changes I have planned, we can discuss more widespread testing (if this will even work).

[mazdafreak]

@Enki @phate @GLORIFIEDBOZO @silvapain

Okay so I pulled the spill valve, and well I def don't like what I see at all!!!

Is my fuel filter clogged up or what??? It's like I have sand in my fuel.

[phate]

Collect a sample!! That's def something new lol.

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Is it sticky? How far did you drive with it stuck? Has your intank filter ever been changed? Where did you get your gas?

[mazdafreak]

Originally Posted by phate Collect a sample!! That's def something new lol.

I'm at work and cleaned the spill valve....I think there is some shit in the pump still.


Do u use a q-tip for the sample??

[Tokay444]

It's obviously corn meal.
And I'm not even black.

[mazdafreak]

Originally Posted by GLORIFIEDBOZO Is it sticky? How far did you drive with it stuck? Has your intank filter ever been changed? Where did you get your gas?

I got stuck driving it for like 10 miles if that.....no, my intake pump filter was never changed with 39,xxx miles on the car, and I have no idea how to install it...I was gonna change to the 265 pump.

And I just switched from throntons gas to Mobils 85 gas, this is the second tank.... Could be garbage gas.

[Bosox]

I wanted to do some e-research on VR1 racing oil and found this on a Corvette forum. I make no claims to the veracity of the statements made, just thought I would post it up for consideration...

I picked up a Valvoline product manual over the weekend. It clarified some questions about their Racing oil products. It turns out that VR1 Racing Oil is just ordinary new car street oil that says Racing Oil on the label. I think most of us thought it was extra good stuff because of those words, and because it said it contains ZDDP (Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate), which we commonly just call zinc. That ended up being just marketing hype, since even the newer street oils still contain some zinc, just at much lower levels than they used too. Of course, that reduction was done for emissions reasons to prevent wrecking the cats on street cars, certainly not to help the engines. As we know, zinc is considered one of the main additives that gives extra protection against engine wear. Many consider the fact that zinc has been nearly removed from newer street oils to be the primary cause for the rash of flat tappet motor wiped lobes. It may also be a contributing factor to solid roller lifter failures as well. So, of course, racers and gearheads typically like to stay away from street oil if they don’t run cat equipped cars. The thing is, VR1 is API certified as SM rated (check the bottle and you’ll see), which is the latest street oil rating for current new cars, as well as older ones so they claim. But don’t tell that to the guys with wiped lobes. In order to meet that latest strict API rating, the zinc level is at its lowest level yet……..so much for Valvoline’s feeble claim of “contains ZDDP”. And so much for VR1 being actual “Racing Oil”. I think most of us expect true racing oil to have much larger amounts of zinc than even the older “good” street oil. On top of that, I recently came across a Valvoline link on the web, where they talked about VR1 being a synthetic blend, though they don’t even say that on the bottle. So………. they don’t make it widely known that it is a synthetic blend, yet they do imply it has a lot of zinc, which is doesn’t. I know many people are quite happy using VR1, but the good it is doing for them apparently comes mostly from it being partial synthetic, not from any help from zinc. Jeg’s lists this oil for $5.00 per qt. I was planning to use it in the 540 I’m building, but now I wouldn’t even consider it.

For those of us who actually want truly elevated levels of zinc in our oil, we have to look no further than Valvoline’s two other Race Oils. They have conventional (petroleum) Racing Oil and Synthetic Racing Oil, both of which truly have elevated levels of zinc. Since they do, they say clearly on the bottles, “Not Street Legal”, which is because they will actually ruin the cats on cat equipped cars. And they don’t carry new street oil API ratings. Jeg’s lists the conventional at $7.00 per qt and the synthetic at $9.00 per qt.

Just when we thought it was safe to stop thinking about oil………………

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Originally Posted by Bosox I wanted to do some e-research on VR1 racing oil and found this on a Corvette forum. I make no claims to the veracity of the statements made, just thought I would post it up for consideration... I picked up a Valvoline product manual over the weekend. It clarified some questions about their Racing oil products. It turns out that VR1 Racing Oil is just ordinary new car street oil that says Racing Oil on the label. I think most of us thought it was extra good stuff because of those words, and because it said it contains ZDDP (Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate), which we commonly just call zinc. That ended up being just marketing hype, since even the newer street oils still contain some zinc, just at much lower levels than they used too. Of course, that reduction was done for emissions reasons to prevent wrecking the cats on street cars, certainly not to help the engines. As we know, zinc is considered one of the main additives that gives extra protection against engine wear. Many consider the fact that zinc has been nearly removed from newer street oils to be the primary cause for the rash of flat tappet motor wiped lobes. It may also be a contributing factor to solid roller lifter failures as well. So, of course, racers and gearheads typically like to stay away from street oil if they don’t run cat equipped cars. The thing is, VR1 is API certified as SM rated (check the bottle and you’ll see), which is the latest street oil rating for current new cars, as well as older ones so they claim. But don’t tell that to the guys with wiped lobes. In order to meet that latest strict API rating, the zinc level is at its lowest level yet……..so much for Valvoline’s feeble claim of “contains ZDDP”. And so much for VR1 being actual “Racing Oil”. I think most of us expect true racing oil to have much larger amounts of zinc than even the older “good” street oil. On top of that, I recently came across a Valvoline link on the web, where they talked about VR1 being a synthetic blend, though they don’t even say that on the bottle. So………. they don’t make it widely known that it is a synthetic blend, yet they do imply it has a lot of zinc, which is doesn’t. I know many people are quite happy using VR1, but the good it is doing for them apparently comes mostly from it being partial synthetic, not from any help from zinc. Jeg’s lists this oil for $5.00 per qt. I was planning to use it in the 540 I’m building, but now I wouldn’t even consider it. For those of us who actually want truly elevated levels of zinc in our oil, we have to look no further than Valvoline’s two other Race Oils. They have conventional (petroleum) Racing Oil and Synthetic Racing Oil, both of which truly have elevated levels of zinc. Since they do, they say clearly on the bottles, “Not Street Legal”, which is because they will actually ruin the cats on cat equipped cars. And they don’t carry new street oil API ratings. Jeg’s lists the conventional at $7.00 per qt and the synthetic at $9.00 per qt. Just when we thought it was safe to stop thinking about oil………………

Where is this product manual he read? Most of it has an API rating of SL, there is one version of 20-50 that is rated SN/SM which is not the most recent rating, but is still current. It is a full synthetic, not a blend. No shit it's a street oil or it wouldn't have a API rating. API doesn't rate hardcore racing oils, however last I checked they are still street legal. I am attaching a hilighted version of the product information I think I attached back on like page 3 or something of this thread.

Edit: they don't make the ones highlighted red anymore.

Edit 2: it's on page 4 with some other shit

[SpeedSixxx]

whoever wrote that shit up on the fagvette forum is a fuck tard shit stick..

so I guess you can also ignore what I wrote about calling the tech hotline on the back of the VR1 bottle and asking many questions about the oil..

"why is it saphire blue?"
"it's saphire blue to indicate it's a TRUE FULL synthetic and yes the saphire blue is just a dye, a dye that indicates TRUE FULL SYN.."

the guy even told me all those other FULL SYNTHETIC oils such as mobil one and whatever PP or other shit youn use is really a SYN BLEND not real True Full Syn..

any company selling TRUE FULL SYNTHETIC dyes the oil saphire blue to indicate ... TRUE FULL SYN..

anyway.

baseball sux dick almost as much as golf... delete your post and change your name please.. thank you

[mazdafreak]

I just wasted my whole time reading that shit....fuck those vette guys....blaming problems on the oil, when they probably fucked there shit up from theirselves messing with shit.




Anyways, I'm pulling my pump today, we'll see what it looks like inside, cause we kno my spill valve looked like complete shit.

[mazdafreak]

Well i pulled the pump after the spill valve took a shit and looked like sand covered my spill valve.


The pump was cleaner than shit!!! WTF was that shit the other day?? I did out 93 back in....might put a lil 85 back in to see if I can get that build up again and send a sample.







SPILL VALVE CLEAN NOW?!?!?





ARE THERE SCAR MARKS ON THIS?? ((WEAR MARKS))