How to integrate the Guardian Angel with a WMI Failsafe

[neganox]

I still have yet to install my snow failsafe as I've had a little hiccup getting the flow gauge to me. The snow failsafe is a bit different as it apparently only trips if flow drops below X rate after Y seconds. So I'm assuming 1. No overflow protection and 2. No progressive mapping like the AEM, only max flow will be measured. I'm somewhat worried about 1, but with snows controller design their pump shouldn't magically come on by itself.

My real hangup is where to mount this thing. I have a solenoid right near my nozzle which is run into a DM throttle body plate, so I need to get the module between that solenoid and the nozzle incase the solenoid fails. I'm thinking I might have to fab up some kind of plate to fit on top of the cold pipe and mount the unit to that. I could secure it maybe utilizing the bolts on the t-clamps securing the cold pipe to the throttle body with an additional set of nuts on the t-bolts. Hmmm.

[mazdakaps]

So as i read aem and snow failsafe seems to work fine with guardian angel. The snow just needs a relay work . But the pressure switch is it also needed to work with the snow failsafe or its only needed if the controller is from another company like DO? My meth kit is the snow performance stage 2.
Thanks

[Lex]

The GA V2 actually no longer needs a relay. It takes as an input a high signal as well as a low signal.

The snow and AEM failsafes are add-ons to any kit. So in other words you can add any of these systems to any meth kit.

[mazdakaps]

I am sorry for my english i meant the snowperformance faisafe needs a relay to work with GA v2. I think we spoke via email last week and you have send me a diagram for that connection between snow failsafe and GA. This was for the GA v1? The connection between GA v2 and snow failsafe doesnt need a relay anymore?

I also asked about the pressure switch a member here used to connect his DO controller with the snow failsafe but as i understand that switch isnt needed with the snowperformance controller and the snow failsafe.
Again sorry for any missunderstanding .

[Lex]

Originally Posted by mazdakaps I am sorry for my english i meant the snowperformance faisafe needs a relay to work with GA v2. I think we spoke via email last week and you have send me a diagram for that connection between snow failsafe and GA. This was for the GA v1? The connection between GA v2 and snow failsafe doesnt need a relay anymore? I also asked about the pressure switch a member here used to connect his DO controller with the snow failsafe but as i understand that switch isnt needed with the snowperformance controller and the snow failsafe. Again sorry for any missunderstanding .

Yes the relay is only needed in the GA V1. I thought you had a V1. The new V2 does not need a relay.

If you get the failsafe you won't need a pressure switch.

[dale_gribble]

For a 2 month update, the AEM failsafe has been doing quite well. Last week it started triggering the failsafe due to overflow. I first started to think the sensor was failing but sure enough, one of the failsafe push connect adapters that threads onto the flow sensor was coming loose and it was leaking. I otherwise haven't seen a single false positive and by monitoring BATs, it appears to be working very well.

So, I am finally ready to mate the failsafe to my GA I think and let it start doing its thing.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble For a 2 month update, the AEM failsafe has been doing quite well. Last week it started triggering the failsafe due to overflow. I first started to think the sensor was failing but sure enough, one of the failsafe push connect adapters that threads onto the flow sensor was coming loose and it was leaking. I otherwise haven't seen a single false positive and by monitoring BATs, it appears to be working very well. So, I am finally ready to mate the failsafe to my GA I think and let it start doing its thing.

Even though I keep an eye on gauges etc. it's so nice to have a failsafe that actually drops power you can trust.

I've had the failsafe trigger a few times and I'm happy I didn't have to be watching things to lift and the GA took care of it. It's hard to do when watching the road and driving the car ... so much so that I don't feel gauges are good enough to catch an emergency condition unless they have an alarm or failsafe of sorts. So if outfitting gauges or alarms for critical functions I will now opt for an alarm or some sort of trigger every time.

[jack_hammer]

Originally Posted by Lex Even though I keep an eye on gauges etc. it's so nice to have a failsafe that actually drops power you can trust. I've had the failsafe trigger a few times and I'm happy I didn't have to be watching things to lift and the GA took care of it. It's hard to do when watching the road and driving the car ... so much so that I don't feel gauges are good enough to catch an emergency condition unless they have an alarm or failsafe of sorts. So if outfitting gauges or alarms for critical functions I will now opt for an alarm or some sort of trigger every time.

How's that cooling mist kit holding up?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by jack_hammer How's that cooling mist kit holding up?

So far still doing well.

[dale_gribble]

For a 3 month update, my failsafe flow sensor died. Meth still continued to flow per monitoring BATs. I swapped flow sensor with spare and it worked, so definitely flow sensor issue.

Looks like AEM is good to go to send me a replacement. I can buy these from GEM sensors directly (part 212465), but for $120/ea, I makes sense to do it under warranty.

Otherwise, I still really like the system. It was reliable until it wasn't.

[Dust]

Glad I have two CMGS sensors that are also GEM. Couldn't find the part number when I went looking a few years ago though.

[Lex]

Just to contrast this with the Coolingmist CMGS system that monitors pump current. I've had about 4 false positives over the winter and they were all as the temperature transitioned from cold to warm and warm to cold (near freezing). I chose not to adjust sensitivity on the system and just reset it to relearn as the temperatures changed. Everything else is working as it should so far.

[dale_gribble]

Ok, 6 month update, both of my replacement AEM failsafe flow sensors died. It's always the same. They work perfect for a few months, then get intermittent and then die. So, this is 4 sensors total that have crapped out. When they are new, you can blow in them or put water through them from a hose nozzle and hear the impellor spin. On all 4 bad units, you don't hear the impellor spin anymore. They end up siezing I guess.

I'll mail these back in I guess, but I 100% recommend that EVERYONE avoid any of the failsafes that use the GEMs flow sensor (AEM or SNOW). They just can't handle the job even though on paper they should clearly be able to. I have a suspicion that their little impellors don't like the continuous pulsing from the pumps, or it could be the methanol is wiping out the impellor bearings or something.

[neganox]

This is probably why Snow switched to a pump current monitoring failsafe type deal with their new controller.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by neganox This is probably why Snow switched to a pump current monitoring failsafe type deal with their new controller.

I didn't know they switched to the same method Coolingmist is using. I still see the GEM sensor based flow meters on their site. Any further info on this new product?

Safe Injection Unit

[neganox]

I was referring to this little guy.

VC-50 Controller

[ItsNox]

Originally Posted by neganox I was referring to this little guy. VC-50 Controller

Thanks for this. I like. Let the investigation begin.

[neganox]

If you stumble upon the whitepaper or instructions for that VC-50 please share.

[ItsNox]

Originally Posted by neganox If you stumble upon the whitepaper or instructions for that VC-50 please share.

Alright, emails away. I could not find instructions or anything so I emailed the sales department. Lets see what we get.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by neganox I was referring to this little guy. VC-50 Controller

From the description it certainly looks like they are using a very similar strategy to what coolingmist has been using.

The CMGS continues to be reliable. The only times I have any issues is when we transition from summer to winter and vice versa. A big drop or increase in temperatures can falsely trigger the alarm since the resistance characteristics of the motor in the pump and some of the mechanical parts change with temperature. In this case just reset the system and it should be good to go. I've had a false alarm around 4-5 times since starting to run this daily in the beginning of the year.

[ItsNox]

Received an email back from Snow. Attached is the install instructions.

[neganox]

In typical Snow fashion, they appear to have sent you the wrong instructions.

[Mauro_Penguin]

Originally Posted by neganox In typical Snow fashion, they appear to have sent you the wrong instructions.

Are they a pain to work with? I know one of our locals is waiting to have a controller warrantied. By the sounds of it, it's going to be a while just to hear back...

[ItsNox]

Originally Posted by neganox In typical Snow fashion, they appear to have sent you the wrong instructions.

Yea so I think that was my fault. When I clicked the link you posted, it went to the Safe Injection Unit. I think. Maybe I'm crazy. So thats what I requested the install instructions for. I have a second email out for the white paper/install doc on the VC-50 Controller. Shit looks AWESOME

[ItsNox]

Got back to me quick this time. Sales guys are always on top of sh!t.

[MazdaspeedKills]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble Ok, 6 month update, both of my replacement AEM failsafe flow sensors died. It's always the same. They work perfect for a few months, then get intermittent and then die. So, this is 4 sensors total that have crapped out. When they are new, you can blow in them or put water through them from a hose nozzle and hear the impellor spin. On all 4 bad units, you don't hear the impellor spin anymore. They end up siezing I guess. I'll mail these back in I guess, but I 100% recommend that EVERYONE avoid any of the failsafes that use the GEMs flow sensor (AEM or SNOW). They just can't handle the job even though on paper they should clearly be able to. I have a suspicion that their little impellors don't like the continuous pulsing from the pumps, or it could be the methanol is wiping out the impellor bearings or something.

I second this at least for the AEM failsafe; can't weigh in on the Snow model. I installed and had two sensors go on me. AEM's failsafe is good in concept but very poor in execution. Look into other manufacturers. I'm in the process of ripping mine out now. Forget the failsafe feature I can't even get an accurate flow reading! I'm not willing to run my meth setup without a reliable setup. Pissed that I spent $250 on a piece of junk.

[dale_gribble]

I'm gutting my WMI setup. I will say that the Devils Own DVC30 has never failed me in years of continuous operation and probably 40-50 gallons of meth/water through it. I do really, really hate the black box aspect of it though. When you're sitting 4,5,6+ degrees of advance over pump gas and you are in the heat of the moment racing or doing a canyon run, you can't sit there and babysit BATs and KR. This is why I initially went for the GA + AEM WMI failsafe in the first place. I love the idea of a failsafe to give some margin for error in the event I am not watching my AP at that exact moment a line pops off or the pump seizes.

After @Lex;'s experience and feedback, I decided to go with the Coolingmist CMGS controller and their failsafe box. It will be an easy swap for me since I already have 1) the controller wired to the pump, and 2) wiring/power running to the gauge pod for the POS AEM failsafe gauge. The failsafe line is even already hooked up to the GA. I'll use my pump, upgraded valve, wiring, meth tank, and just upgrade controller and failsafe. FYI, if you already have another kit installed, you can get the CMGS controller + failsafe for ~$399.

I don't have anything good to say about the AEM Failsafe kit. Can't put much stock in a failsafe that fails itself.

[865ms3]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble I'm gutting my WMI setup. I will say that the Devils Own DVC30 has never failed me in years of continuous operation and probably 40-50 gallons of meth/water through it. I do really, really hate the black box aspect of it though. When you're sitting 4,5,6+ degrees of advance over pump gas and you are in the heat of the moment racing or doing a canyon run, you can't sit there and babysit BATs and KR. This is why I initially went for the GA + AEM WMI failsafe in the first place. I love the idea of a failsafe to give some margin for error in the event I am not watching my AP at that exact moment a line pops off or the pump seizes. After @Lex;'s experience and feedback, I decided to go with the Coolingmist CMGS controller and their failsafe box. It will be an easy swap for me since I already have 1) the controller wired to the pump, and 2) wiring/power running to the gauge pod for the POS AEM failsafe gauge. The failsafe line is even already hooked up to the GA. I'll use my pump, upgraded valve, wiring, meth tank, and just upgrade controller and failsafe. FYI, if you already have another kit installed, you can get the CMGS controller + failsafe for ~$399. I don't have anything good to say about the AEM Failsafe kit. Can't put much stock in a failsafe that fails itself.

Could have installed the aem afr failsafe...wired it to a $2 relay and tied it to ebcs. Failsafe triggers....you only build spring pressure. Gauge is less than 300. Its also a wideband and boost gauge.

That's what I'm running. Tested and it works. Just FYI

[dale_gribble]

I'm done with AEM plus the d07 with 50/50 doesn't hit afrs enough to show a shift anyways.

Their egt gauge has also been causing me problems over the years. Done with their stuff.

[neganox]

I ending up giving up on flow meters. There's a thread on here somewhere about hooking an aeroforce interceptor into the GA. I set it to fire off the GA if it detects more than 2.5* of KR.

[MS3Shadow]

Here is that thread for reference.

How-To: Install AeroForce Interceptor with Guardian Angel Trigger

[England15j]

I absolutely love my CoolingMist controller and failsafe. I found that the sensitivity settings were a bit too relaxed and it didn't pickup a few real issues but after some fine adjustment of the settings it's been flawless.

[865ms3]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble I'm done with AEM plus the d07 with 50/50 doesn't hit afrs enough to show a shift anyways. Their egt gauge has also been causing me problems over the years. Done with their stuff.

Didn't realize Thats all you were spraying. Carry on.

[ItsNox]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble After @Lex;'s experience and feedback, I decided to go with the Coolingmist CMGS controller and their failsafe box. It will be an easy swap for me since I already have 1) the controller wired to the pump, and 2) wiring/power running to the gauge pod for the POS AEM failsafe gauge. The failsafe line is even already hooked up to the GA. I'll use my pump, upgraded valve, wiring, meth tank, and just upgrade controller and failsafe. FYI, if you already have another kit installed, you can get the CMGS controller + failsafe for ~$399. I don't have anything good to say about the AEM Failsafe kit. Can't put much stock in a failsafe that fails itself.

I was planning on doing the same thing with the Snow VC-50 VC-50 Controller. You now have me considering the CMGS controller. You got a rough timeframe that you hope to do this?

[dale_gribble]

Should be in within 2-3 weeks

[dale_gribble]

Originally Posted by ItsNox I was planning on doing the same thing with the Snow VC-50 VC-50 Controller. You now have me considering the CMGS controller. You got a rough timeframe that you hope to do this?

I was looking at the VC-50, but the CMGS and VC-50 roll in around the same price point, and the CMGS is proven with some clout, so that tipped it for me, plus that smart failsafe box kind of took it over the finish line.

[dale_gribble]

Originally Posted by neganox I ending up giving up on flow meters. There's a thread on here somewhere about hooking an aeroforce interceptor into the GA. I set it to fire off the GA if it detects more than 2.5* of KR.

Fuck, that's not a bad idea. That kind of extracts the failsafe to a level above just monitoring meth flow and works as an overall failsafe should other things get screwy.

EDIT: Ah, I see that you can only have the Aeroforce or the AP on the CANBUS at a time. That's kind of a bummer. I think if it was both simultaneously, that would be killer. That's tough when you want to log a run with AP but still need a failsafe trigger at the same time you are logging.

[neganox]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble Fuck, that's not a bad idea. That kind of extracts the failsafe to a level above just monitoring meth flow and works as an overall failsafe should other things get screwy. EDIT: Ah, I see that you can only have the Aeroforce or the AP on the CANBUS at a time. That's kind of a bummer. I think if it was both simultaneously, that would be killer. That's tough when you want to log a run with AP but still need a failsafe trigger at the same time you are logging.

Just get a splitter? Wouldn't that work? You can run two aeroforce gauges using one. Probably would be some degradation in polling.

[dale_gribble]

I think the dual aeroforce must present itself on the can as a single device.

[dale_gribble]

El oh El, Coolingmist's instructions from the CMSG and failsafe are literally among the worst I have read. The wiring diagram looks like a 12 year old did it in Office 95, and it's way to overly complex explaining the parameters with typos galore.

Hey @Lex; one of the only things I am uncertain of, is their explanation of the failsafe wire from the CMSG (which will go to the Guardian Angel) and its parameter settings:

000 Normally Open (Default)
001 Normally Closed
002 Normally Open (closed when MIN set point reached) ** YOU MUST SET THIS IF YOU DON’T HAVE THE FSB
AND WANT TO USE A SOLENOID. THIS WILL GROUND THE SOLENOID AT MIN BOOST
003 Normally Open (closed when MAX set point reached)

I am guessing 'normally open' = signal level low (i.e. 0v) and when it triggers a failsafe then signal level goes high (i.e. +5v)? What a terrible explanation.