Product Release: Stratified Boost Dial

[Lex]

Originally Posted by mps6dave its becoming hesitant/juddery up top when fueling gets to about 95%idc,im usually running 265kpa,9.5-10* up top , i can can run 2.38load up to 5k then tapers down to 2.15at 6900rpm if fueling allows it. i may get a better in tank pump to help with fuel demand

I honestly don't think you have a fueling issues. I have tuned many cars on the stock fuel system with higher loads. If you're getting hesitations up top it's either spark blowout (tighten down the gap to 0.026) or knock.

[mps6dave]

its closing the throttle but acc pedal still 100%, wgdc drops then about a second later throttle plate.ill post a log hang on sir

[mps6dave]

here ya go bud

[Lex]

Originally Posted by mps6dave here ya go bud

I don't see any throttle closure in that log but let's keep this thread on topic.

[mps6dave]

Originally Posted by Lex I don't see any throttle closure in that log but let's keep this thread on topic.

my bad sorry,back on topic tho,the valve definatly works and works very well

[RichieRichness]

I've started testing my hybrid MBC/EBCS/Stratified Boost Dial approach. http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...7/#post1928386

[Lex]

Sample logs and curves added to OP to better illustrate how to set the Boost Dial.

[Alpha]

Looks solid Lex! Nice work man!

[Smelson]

Where should I be getting the boost source from on a k04 with stock EBCS?


Sent while losing to TheFlash

[Lex]

The manifold OR the compressor housing. Be aware that the compressor housing has a restrictor built in.

[Smelson]

Originally Posted by Lex The manifold OR the compressor housing. Be aware that the compressor housing has a restrictor built in.

At the moment I have it coming from the BPV line. I have the knob a quarter turn away from being maxed out and I'm still getting WGDC at 100% in the upper RPM's. I'm tapering to 17lbs at redline so I don't think I'm asking too much of the turbo. I'm waiting on a bigger intake and then I will be getting in touch with you for a tune. I would like to have this sorted out before that though.


Sent while losing to TheFlash

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Smelson At the moment I have it coming from the BPV line. I have the knob a quarter turn away from being maxed out and I'm still getting WGDC at 100% in the upper RPM's. I'm tapering to 17lbs at redline so I don't think I'm asking too much of the turbo. I'm waiting on a bigger intake and then I will be getting in touch with you for a tune. I would like to have this sorted out before that though. Sent while losing to TheFlash

Are you spiking during spool? What happens if you go further into the + region? Be careful if you go fully to + your WG will see no boost and you will overboost for sure. Port up a log.

[Smelson]

Originally Posted by Lex Are you spiking during spool? What happens if you go further into the + region? Be careful if you go fully to + your WG will see no boost and you will overboost for sure. Port up a log.

I do have a spike and have been working with the WG duty cycle down low to combat that. In the latest revision I have a small spike to 23, I am targeting 22. I have some more work to do because I now have a dip after the spike. I think that log I had the dial a half turn from max, I now have it a quarter turn and will try to get some logs tomorrow. I do have a 3bar MAP sensor so I know what I'm hitting when I do over boost. Here is the most recent log.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Smelson I do have a spike and have been working with the WG duty cycle down low to combat that. In the latest revision I have a small spike to 23, I am targeting 22. I have some more work to do because I now have a dip after the spike. I think that log I had the dial a half turn from max, I now have it a quarter turn and will try to get some logs tomorrow. I do have a 3bar MAP sensor so I know what I'm hitting when I do over boost. Here is the most recent log.

Based on your log you may be able to get more boost up top. Target to get 22 psi spool at around 45wgdc and you will need to lower both the wgdc and lec coarse table to start. Turn the dial up as you control your spool to avoid spikes. Also keep in mind that more boost up top may not mean more power.

[agentgordon27]

Bought this boost dial, now I know how poor Canadians feel when they order stuff from here and get kicked in the nuts with shipping.

Also, I got my shipping confirmation and am SO used to seeing Canadian pharmacy emails that I almost deleted it. Gathering grains of sand that will be the mountain that is a BT speed.

[blkspeed307]

Received my Strat boost dial last week & definitely a quality piece. Thanks Lex can't wait 2 get it installed along with BT & other parts.
Next custom Strat BT tune.

[agentgordon27]

So I have both this and a grimmspeed ebcs, should I just use the boost dial with the stock bcs and change it out later if the stocker takes a crap? I figure I can do a top up tune later if that happens, unless I should just install it for the piece of mind.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by agentgordon27 So I have both this and a grimmspeed ebcs, should I just use the boost dial with the stock bcs and change it out later if the stocker takes a crap? I figure I can do a top up tune later if that happens, unless I should just install it for the piece of mind.

Once the boost dial is ... dialed in ... the EBCS will have a fairly small effect. So essentially you can swap from the GS to the OEM and vice versa with minimal to no effect.

[agentgordon27]

Originally Posted by Lex Once the boost dial is ... dialed in ... the EBCS will have a fairly small effect. So essentially you can swap from the GS to the OEM and vice versa with minimal to no effect.

Thanks, that is great to know, don't hate me cause I didn't get the stratified EBCV, it was sold out

[Lex]

Originally Posted by agentgordon27 Thanks, that is great to know, don't hate me cause I didn't get the stratified EBCV, it was sold out

Absolutely not Thank you for getting the Boost Dial, I think you will be quite happy with the tuning results.

[Lex]

Just tuning an EWG GT3071 speed3 using the Boost Dial and OEM boost control solenoid. Look at the perfectly flat boost control with a quick spool and no spiking. You can have your cake and eat it too.

[EmPeEs6]

I've just ordered one of these boost dials and now I'm wondering how to configure my (boost based) software correctly.

Up to now I ran a GS ebcs in 3 port mode with a maximum required wgdc of 63-70 (depending on the temps/weather) in order to reach my desired target boost level of 22 psi, so over all I have a wgdc range from ~55-70 at wot.
Of course I also adujsted boost dynamics and load correction tables (besides some others) to meet the requirements.

Now I have a few questions about the correct start settings of the boost dial, in order to get the best "boost window":

- I intend to start with the blue ring, or shall I start with the red one?
- Do I have to reduce any values (wgdc/bd) or can I just leave everything as it is for the first try / test runs?
- How is the further processing? Which components (boost dial, wgdc, bd, boost targets...) have to be adjusted, what is the recommended order and step size for these adjustments to come to a solution without spending too much time? Is it sufficient to adjust only the boost dial little by little or will I also have to experiment a lot with all contributing (software) parameters?
- What is the actual aim - to reach the same wgdc level (and stable boost) as before?
In principle it should be possible to reach the same boost targets using different boost dial windows (but significant different wdgc levels), so what is the "best" setup?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by EmPeEs6 I've just ordered one of these boost dials and now I'm wondering how to configure my (boost based) software correctly. Up to now I ran a GS ebcs in 3 port mode with a maximum required wgdc of 63-70 (depending on the temps/weather) in order to reach my desired target boost level of 22 psi, so over all I have a wgdc range from ~55-70 at wot. Of course I also adujsted boost dynamics and load correction tables (besides some others) to meet the requirements. Now I have a few questions about the correct start settings of the boost dial, in order to get the best "boost window": - I intend to start with the blue ring, or shall I start with the red one? - Do I have to reduce any values (wgdc/bd) or can I just leave everything as it is for the first try / test runs? - How is the further processing? Which components (boost dial, wgdc, bd, boost targets...) have to be adjusted, what is the recommended order and step size for these adjustments to come to a solution without spending too much time? Is it sufficient to adjust only the boost dial little by little or will I also have to experiment a lot with all contributing (software) parameters? - What is the actual aim - to reach the same wgdc level (and stable boost) as before? In principle it should be possible to reach the same boost targets using different boost dial windows (but significant different wdgc levels), so what is the "best" setup?

I would start with the boost dial in the position that it is currently.

The aim is to get maximum desired boost in the upper RPM around the 90% wgdc point in warm weather.

During spool you should also not be getting spikes.

Take a look at the example tables posted in the first page here and the instructions document.

[EmPeEs6]

Originally Posted by Lex I would start with the boost dial in the position that it is currently. The aim is to get maximum desired boost in the upper RPM around the 90% wgdc point in warm weather. During spool you should also not be getting spikes. Take a look at the example tables posted in the first page here and the instructions document.

Thank's Lex, I just wasn't sure if I should try to keep wgdc quite low (using a red or even golden boost dial setup) or to target something around 90% (using a "softer" setting) in order to achieve my boost targets. You know, there are always several ways to reach the same target state.
So I will probably have to increase my wgdc table significantly. Nevertheless, the main goal will be to have a stable, non oscillating/non spiking boost curve.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by EmPeEs6 Thank's Lex, I just wasn't sure if I should try to keep wgdc quite low (using a red or even golden boost dial setup) or to target something around 90% (using a "softer" setting) in order to achieve my boost targets. You know, there are always several ways to reach the same target state. So I will probbaly have to increse my wgdc table significantly. Nevertheless, the main goal will be to have a stable, non oscillating/non spiking boost curve.

You will find a sweet spot in the tuning window of the boost dial where boost ramps up quickly without overshooting targets. If you have it set too far in the + side you will see boost spikes when it spools. If you set it too low (-) you will see slow spool and your WGDC go to 100% without reaching boost targets.

Once you found the correct sweet spot, you leave it and use the ECU to control boost. The setting it comes at is a good setting to start from and you will need minimal changes in most cases.

[Lex]

If anyone has any questions regarding this boost control method give me a shout. I know it's not the conventional "way" but the results are excellent.

[EmPeEs6]

After a few weeks of waiting (especially for the German customs) I finally got my boost dial and now I have an installation question:
The 3rd ("middle") port of my GS is not connected to the wastegate, but to the boost source.
So, shall I "deactivate" the port which is now connected to the wastegate or the port "3" in your diagram, which (in my case) goes to the boost source? Actually I would plug the boost dial in the current connection line from the GS to the boost source and connect the tool to the wastegate, leaving the intake line as it is.
I'm a little bit confused...

[Lex]

Originally Posted by EmPeEs6 After a few weeks of waiting (especially for the German customs) I finally got my boost dial and now I have an installation question: The 3rd ("middle") port of my GS is not connected to the wastegate, but to the boost source. So, shall I "deactivate" the port which is now connected to the wastegate or the port "3" in your diagram, which (in my case) goes to the boost source? Actually I would plug the boost dial in between the current connection line from the GS to the boost source and connect the tool to the wastegate, leaving the intake line as it is. I'm a little bit confused...

Check out our 3 port setup diagram:

http://www.stratifiedauto.com/images...203%20Port.png

[EmPeEs6]

I already studied this diagram - there is also a Grimmspeed example in this thread where the installation seems to be different from mine, too.
The basic question is: should I change/adjust my connections so that they are equal to the ones in your diagram or shall I leave everything as it is (because it works and cannot be totally wrong) and just put the boost dial in the boost source connection line and connect it to the wastegate afterwards, deactivating my current wg port? In principle this is what your diagram shows, although you are using other ebcs ports/port numbers.

[EmPeEs6]

This evening I wanted to test the boost dial, and...this was the "funniest" test drive ever!
Although I adjusted the boost dial to the red setting (at least for my last run), commanding up to 22 psi at wot (wgdc 60-80), I just reached ~14 psi maximum boost pressure!
Since there are no boost leaks, I was obviously wrong and have to correct my port settings...
But, can anyone explain why (in my case) in 3 port mode the port connections were ok and everything worked fine, but when switching to 2 port mode, I have to change them - probably to the ones on the boost dial diagram?!?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by EmPeEs6 This evening I wanted to test the boost dial, and...this was the "funniest" test drive ever! Although I adjusted the boost dial to the red setting (at least for my last run), commanding up to 22 psi at wot (wgdc 60-80), I just reached 15-16 psi maximum boost pressure! Since there are no boost leaks, I was obviously wrong and have to correct my port settings... But, can anyone explain why (in my case) in 3 port mode the port connections were ok and everything worked fine, but when switching to 2 port mode, I have to change them - probably to the ones on the boost dial diagram?!?

The connections should be as per the diagram whether it's a GS solenoid or a Stratified one. The port numbers are the same. Basically the 3 port is setup in "2 port mode" and it bleeds boost pressure away from the WG actuator line.

[EmPeEs6]

Finally I've found the reason for my confusion:
If you have a look at the "official" GS installation guide: https://www.grimmspeed.com/install_g...MazdaSpeed.pdf
you can see that the connections for the GS running in 2 port mode are totally different from those for the 3 port mode!
In any case, the boost dial diagram shows the correct settings, which I will test tomorrow ;-)

BTW: The diagram from SarcasticOne on page 3 of this thread shows the correct settings for a GS using the boost dial.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by EmPeEs6 Finally I've found the reason for my confusion: If you have a look at the "official" GS installation guide: https://www.grimmspeed.com/install_g...MazdaSpeed.pdf you can see that the connections for the GS running in 2 port mode are totally different from those for the 3 port mode! In any case, the boost dial diagram shows the correct settings, which I will test tomorrow ;-) BTW: The diagram from SarcasticOne on page 3 of this thread shows the correct settings for a GS using the boost dial.

This is why I made those diagrams, to remove any confusion. The port numbers for our solenoid, COBB, GS, are all the same so just follow our diagram and the same port numbers if you have a different solenoid.

[EmPeEs6]

Here is my personal impression after the first test runs using the (now correctly installed) boost dial :

First of all I chose the "blue + 1" setting, meaning "almost blue".

The best thing is that boost is much more smooth and stable now, without the "huge" oscillations which I had before, especially for high revs and high boost.
The driving feels so much more comfortable now, and knock tendency also seems to be reduced.
I got some overboosting during spool up, but this was due to the fact that my start wgdc values were much too hight (commanded: 60-65, required: 40-50).
Boost builds up a little bit later but faster now (at exactly 3k) and reaches the target boost level of 21.5-22 psi for high revs with max. observed wgdc values of 75-80. Before the installation, when using the GS in 3 port mode, I needed 65-70, so this is less than expected (which leaves a lot of headroom :-)

@Lex: I intend to keep this setting and focus on adjusting the wgdc table accordingly, or should I try to find an even better boost dial setup?

In any case, it's a very nice tool and absolutely recommendable!

[Dizzy Turbo]

I'm a little confused. You say boost builds a little later, but faster? Am I reading that wrong lol

[EmPeEs6]

It's just an impression: I command noticeable boost not before 3k. Before, I had already boost at 2.8-2.9k - now it looks like the rise at 3k is sharper, meaning a faster build up. But 100 revs are a negligible difference, moreover boost below 3k is not the best for our engines ;-)

[Lex]

The majority of the tuning still happens in the tune but the boost dial makes the tuning much easier and smoother. The key is to setup the boost dial correctly and then move to the electronic tuning.

What WGDC do you have at redline and what boost are you running and what is your target? If you are not reaching targets and WGDC is 100% and the turbo can get you those targets you need to move it more towards + slowly. If you are fighting spool spikes with relatively low WGDC values then you need to move it towards -.

Say my target is 25psi on the BNR S3.
I set the boost dial such that between 95 - 100% WGDC in hot weather I am reaching that 25psi at redline

[aldekei]

The idea here is to shape your wgdc table such that you spool quickly without spiking while running 75-85% up top. This leaves room for really hot days AND really cold days while providing for plenty of precision for your tune to manage boost.

Hope I didn't step on any toes @Lex;!

tapawhat

[EmPeEs6]

That's what I've thought, too.

- I have no big boost spikes or oscillations during spool up
- nevertheless fast boost buildup
- I reach my boost targets (22 psi) up top at wgdc ~80
- The boost curve is smooth and stable
So, why should I change the boost dial setup further - just to reach wgdc values of 90-95 at redline?
At the moment I have no major issues and enough headroom it I want to increase my target boost further (even for hotter weather conditions)...
The boost fluctuations I had around 3k were just because of much too high wgdc start values (which is absolutely consistent, since when I still used the 2-port oem ebcs, I also had to reduce wgdc at 3k-4k and ramp it up afterwards).
So, is it really required to "target" a maximum wgdc of ~95 when adjusting the boost dial???

I dont want to restrict my boost curve too much, so that there's enough room to run different maps without having to adjust the boost dial each time.
Now I have all advantages that I expected:
- no more huge spikes possible
- smoother, more stable boost curve (especially up top)
- comparing to oem reduced wgdc (something between 3-port mode and oem)
- no more need to play around with all kind of boost/wgdc correction tables
- faster boost buildup (although that was not so important for me)

That's absolutely enough for me and I'm very satisfied!

[Lex]

Originally Posted by EmPeEs6 That's what I've thought, too. - I have no big boost spikes or oscillations during spool up - nevertheless fast boost buildup - I reach my boost targets (22 psi) up top at wgdc ~80 - The boost curve is smooth and stable So, why should I change the boost dial setup further - just to reach wgdc values of 90-95 at redline? At the moment I have no major issues and enough headroom it I want to increase my target boost further (even for hotter weather conditions)... The boost fluctuations I had around 3k were just because of much too high wgdc start values (which is absolutely consistent, since when I still used the 2-port oem ebcs, I also had to reduce wgdc at 3k-4k and ramp it up afterwards). So, is it really required to "target" a maximum wgdc of ~95 when adjusting the boost dial??? I dont want to restrict my boost curve too much, so that there's enough room to run different maps without having to adjust the boost dial each time. Now I have all advantages that I expected: - no more huge spikes possible - smoother, more stable boost curve (especially up top) - comparing to oem reduced wgdc (something between 3-port mode and oem) - no more need to play around with all kind of boost/wgdc correction tables - faster boost buildup (although that was not so important for me) That's absolutely enough for me and I'm very satisfied!

That's excellent, it sounds like you have the boost dial setup correctly. Happy to hear you're enjoying the smooth boost control.

As much as 3 port is preferred by a lot of people, 2 port boost control is not only easier to dial in but smoother as well and with the Boost Dial it can be applied to ANY turbo.

With a large wastegate such as an EWG it is even more of a breeze.