VTA ...
 

I'm just going to leave this log here. Full VTA, stock BPV. This is all for now.

For those tuning with me, I apologize that I am a day behind - but this is starting to look like it might be worth it.

**Edit**

Video with the VTA feature in action:

Hey Lex! I'm on my phone but cliff notes?

This person just doesn't have a recirc tube on the intake/tip to make the stock BPV vta?

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I won't spoil it yet - I want people to take a look at the log. This is my car. This is a stock BPV. This BPV is fully vented to atmosphere.

Damn, no me gusta. Subbed

I'm not seeing anything out of the ordinary...maybe I was too quick looking over the log.

Tell me I needs teh rice!

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Any one of you guys try and run the OEM BPV VTA? Or a piston type valve VTA?

... and that's exactly the point

Soooooo. Vta is good! Sorry if I'm being retarted I'm just doing my last minute reading before I knock out.


Oo and i can try the stock BPV. I hate my TS BPV non dual port
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i have been running the HKS ssqxfucsheicchser valve full vta for a while

I run my turbosmart hybrid hooked up to recirc and vent. Everything on my logs look good. Have that bitch down tight so i haz a little turkey under my hood.

the only thing i noticed in that long....long...long log, was that a couple times after you goosed it , when you let off the throttle it got really rich, down into the low 9:1's for a split second or two.....other then that everything does look normal.

Welp, how for those running piston type pull valves VTA such as the OEM, Forge, Greddy, etc. it's obvious they leak at idle/part throttle or need to be tightened down - sometimes to the point of surge.

I used the OEM BPV above since it REALLY leaks at idle and part throttle. It leaks so much that if you run it VTA your car will almost not run it's so rich. Go ahead and try.

Now the log above ... that's done with the OEM, unmodified BPV, running VTA. Check out the STFTs and AFRs at idle and in other areas where piston type VTA valves crack open and leak.

Added benefit to all this - run any valve VTA and faster spool and response.

@Daddy Chinkus

So we can go rice!?

You're contradicting yourself...or I'm confused by your words? Piston types like oem, forge, greddy, turbosmart, should not leak at idle.

the car will stall out or try to at least i was going to do this just to give it the woosh sound but decided not to because it sounded like it had a bad vacume leak

what he meant is "the supposedly recirc bpv = piston type pull valves" is somehow less harmful than the actual vta bov. and you can run it without a problem

Ran my stock bpv vta, forge v1 vta, synapse vta, and the hks vta.

The only ones that worked where the stock bpv and the hks.

The forge stayed open at idle no matter what spring or shim combo. When you where cruising and let off the gas the rpms would go to about 450 to 500 and bounce like a mofo and then settle down.

The synapse....shit that bitch stay wide the hell open so its impossible to run vta on that unless you get the anti stall kit.

I have a nitch for testing this kinds of things and i am running the synapse bov recirced and the hks vta at the same time.

That is fucking WEIRD I thought for sure there'd be some form of vacuum leak with the OEM BPV running vta.

Running rich between shifts always happens with a mass airflow car when running vta. It releases compensated air so you just dump some fuel in, ran an HKS that way for years and I'll be running my Tial Q the same way when I get it.

Let's just say that there may be a new feature coming to the Guardian Angel that addresses the leak issue with BPVs. Testing underway.

Ive been running vta for over a year now with great success. We had a local run vta with this stock bpv and it worked like a charm and didnt sound bad at all.

Subbed for my car to sound like rice ROCKET

The intercooler pipes never see vacuum, only boost. There is always a positive pressure ratio across the compressor housing, so even at light loads, the pressure in the pipes will necessarily be higher than that in the TIP (which for all intents and purposes is ambient pressure at light loads).

The vacuum resides on the other side of the throttle body (and the TIP at higher loads).

Who did this? That's a horrible idea lol.


Pull types, if designed for recirc, will typically open under vacuum, cause the spring isn't stiff enough to hold the valve shut when vac from the IM is pulling it up. If you look close at the dual port valves like the turbosmart, you'll notice the relief ports are slots, and the VTA port is slightly higher than the recirc port. So when running 50/50 mode, vac in the IM will pull that valve up just enough to actually open the recirc port, but not enough to open the VTA port.

Interesting application idea Alex, removing the vac on shifts and idle. Very cool :)

Diego was his name and he was in Santa Fe when he did it. He said his car ran fine without any issue :)

wonder what he used to clamp off the recirc hose.

@Dano, told you Dj was a ricer. LOL.

(100% kidding DJ, I told Dano you run vta and I don't think he believed me. LOL).

So do we just put a butt plug in the recirc tube or what lol

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i put a pvc plug in mine when i was vta.

How fast Spool/Response are we talking?

Lolol, i've been VTA in my 6 since 2008 i think. I love it.

This thread made me so happy


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Will have to quantify this before I throw anything out there.

Because the valve is no longer open during low load conditions transitioning to a high load condition while staying closed prevents any of the charge air from being bled off during this transition period. This is a benefit whether the valve is VTA or recirculating.

Subbed for sure. Now I need to research to find out what you guys are talking about with the piston type vs pull type. And what mine is. I love a little VTA rice, hence the Dual Port.

I don't mean to derail the thread, but I love all that shit too. Carbon Fiber, body kits, VTA,,,I have an inner ricer.

This thread is putting a smile on @StayBroke's face. He LOVES VTA.

Eager to see results. I always thought the second the t-body opened and the manifold vacuum dropped, the bpv would seal, perhaps not instantly, but quite fast. It would be extremely interesting to see hard data on the differences :)

Ive been vta with my HKS since ive owned an aftermarket bpv/bov. So coming up on 3 years...Even with the stock airbox! haha

I had to fulfill my ricer boner.

Honestly, synapse bov has the fastest responce i have ever seen(in person).

@captain slow, Piston type bov is one like the dual port where the valve is being pulled up

A pull type is what it is call, Like a hks where the valve moves left to right.

30 users viewing this page right now. Mark today as the day MSF went rice.

I'm giddy. I'm doing this tomorrow.

i want a share in this idea!!!

FUUUUU.


Now we need NOS Stickers and big wings, for speed yo!!!:headbang:

LOL @ the number of people viewing this thread.
:drive:

Your next on the vta list.

Alright, I'll bite-
Why is this different today than it was yesterday/last week/last year all of da sudden??

*walks in with chop sticks in hand*

Mother of God, this thread is full of rice.

I thought DJ might have inner rice but lex, damn.

*walks out to check that CF body kit is still on*




Tappin

Im with you. Not sure what changed.

Since lex has admitted he is vta'ing people finally coming out of the closet lolol.

Hmmmmmm psh!

Some have reported never having issues while others have reporting engines running like shit.

This goes back to what has been presented here by @Lex and @Daddy Chinkus in another thread where some BPVs leak at idle and cannot be properly shimmed to remain closed. This isn't an *issue" when you're in recirc since the vac leak won't readily show up in a datalog and doesn't affect driveability vs. the same BPV in VTA mode.

In VTA mode with a leaky BOV/BPV with pull thru MAF, you will have rich LTFTs and a car that cannot meter air properly.

By the looks of it, not many BOVs/BPVs run by the MSF community can remain perfectly sealed at idle. Those that have tried likely represent a majority of the leaky BOV/BPV user group and so an opinion constituting a majority is formed.

Factor in some brownie bashing, insulting threads on people asking and you have popular opinion.

That is until hard data with comparisons is shown.

Such is life, I guess.

/me checks calendar....

nope, not April Fools Day..........

It's Lex, so /probably/ not trolling.................



Universe takes two steps to the left, Pull Through MAF VTA now the cool thing to do?


Can do push through.... Check
Can do tuning & fake it with pull through... Check

tuneless pull through? Sorta like saying oxygen not needed for fire....

Id try this at lunch if I had something to plug the recirc hose with. lol

This is what I've been thinking...

Was there any tuning involved in this? Any modification to the bpv/bov, lines...what did you do to make this ok?

I thought in a earlier post he was testing the bov with the guardian angle but dont quote me on that.

Subbed for future ricer mods

Good you can tie it in to the E85 logs I sent you Wednesday cause Im gonna order this soon and I can do the recirc tube delete option and save me 10 dorrah

http://www.hitunedperformance.com/ht...k-powder-coat/

Dammit, you fuckers.

Now, I have to go at least try this for myself to see.

I have the HKS too. That means a little extra rice.

I tried plugging the recirc tube a while ago and the car fucking stalled at idle. I was using the stock bpv. Really don't see the point in it anyway, I wouldn't run my car all ghetto rigged like that anyway. If I wanted to run VTA I would just go buy a BOV or a hybrid. I like my Forge v1, although I like the Greddy Type-RS sound.

I think this is the deal as well, using the GA to stop vacuum at BPV....or BOV, wait, what?I'm dizzy.

And, since we're talking about ricer turbo sounds. I really like the flutter from my HKS since I installed a metal TIP.

If I lose that flutter by going VTA, I'm switching back.

In one way or another, there is a ricer in all of us.

If im correct this would also get rid of the annoying(for me at least) part throttle/no boost shifting horsey noises, right? in VTA or recirc.

Hahahaha June 8 2012. M247 infects MSF.

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Back when I had a HKS it fluttered in VTa and recirc, I hate the flutter so I bought a TS and guess what--flutters like a motherfucker.

Flutter is where it's at, niggas gotta know !


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So, just to clarify, all of you guys that have been running VTA haven't done any specific tuning to accommodate it?

As most of the old dogs know, before, you had to tune to run VTA. Are you guys doing this on previously tuned maps, OTS maps, or even stock tunes?

Just curious if all that VTA mumbo jumbo back in the day was just a bunch of hogwash. It seems like it was after seeing how many are running VTA with no problems.

Another interesting read is how different BPV's affect fuel trims. There's a thread about it somewhere with test results.

Lol when i had my forge in vta thanks to a short cs recirc tube, the car ran like absolute shit, back firing all over the place, surging at light part throttle. It was bleeding ALOT of air off at idle/light part throttle.

Before I put my OEM bpv back on, I had a Synapse running VTA...never understood why 99% of this forum said it was a bad idea because my car ran great, with the occasional rich condition and pop of the exhaust.

you can get a 1.25-1.5 inch rubber tapered plug from lowes or HD...then use a small metal clamp to keep it in the recirc hose. Spray silicone on the plug to prevent possibility of leaks.

So you mean I didn't have to light that brownie on fire the other day for asking about this? Gonna take all the fun out of things....

But seriously, I'm wondering the same thing as a lot of others-- was this test done without tuning for it? Because if so it's crazy, world-view shaking news; if not then what are we talking about it then?

So when you guys say you are running the Forge VTA, you are referring to plugging the recirc hose?

Just trying to get this straight cause i have a little inner ricer as well...

I wonder what the forge V1 sounds like VTA.... Sword clang and loud ass woosh psssh whatever..

So everyone to this point has just been regurgitating information on VTA being a no no for MAF cars and nobody to this point had ever tested for empirical data?

Oh yeah, it's been tested & logged & discussed repeatedly.

That's why this is causing such a ruckus.....

Lex is doing Lex stuff- doing new things, and enjoying the tease of the first intro....

@Lex Can you clean this up and give us all some clarification. Im really curious on this thread as well as the other peeps.

More specifically... it's vta'ing a bypass valve.

blow off valves are intended to be run VTA. And as such, they are designed to remain shut even with full vacuum applied to their nipple.

bypass valves are intended to be run recirculated. And as such, they are designed to open up the valve under vacuum, idle, and light loads.



Running a bypass valve in VTA, with full vac applied to the bpv nipple, will result in LOTS of lost metered air. Very similar to blowing a coupler, but not as extreme. AFRs will go rich, fuel trims will go very negative, and car will run like poo poo.

Lex is essentially showing that the guardian angel can eliminate the vac applied to the valve at idle and light cruise, and thus allow a bypass valve to operate like a blow off valve.

I just tested this with my hks. lowest afr on a log was 11.02, and that was during a WOT run (need to do an maf cal anyway). I got a plug for the recirc tube on my TIP and and I'm going to set up a more permanent setup, just to see how it does. I got no backfires while driving around for a while, and no stumbling or any other issues. This looks like good news for the inner ricer in all of us.

On that note, I wish I hadn't just bought a new recirc tube and put it on yesterday...

First off let me say I am not an advocate of rice...ur I mean VTA...my Forge sounds just fine and I can hear plenty of woosh out of my SRI....but riddle me this.

Would it make sense to do some work with the shift control tables to reduce the rich condition/backfire on clutch in/out. I have not really messed with the tables much and don't know how bad the rich condition gets and how much backfiring goes on...

I have changed a few things to reduce my own backfiring due to all the meth left over on throttle lift. It helps but not all the time...lol I don't know how far they can compensate but it might be worth trying. You could alter both the IGN comp to reduce ign retard and reduce the addition of fuel with clutch in...IDK these tables may not be able to compensate that fast or that much...lol

Care should be taken when altering the max ign retard and you might always want it negative..I am running the cobb suggested -3 which does make the car respond faster post shift and has reduced my backfires. Haven't altered the load comp tables enough to get any conclusive results.

just thinking out loud here but you might tweak those load based fuel comp tables to add less fuel since you will already get plenty of fuel by VTAing. Not sure WTF you would do with the Load/RPM table since you may shift at different RPMs but the load only table would be a good place to start.

anyway I may be totally off base since I have no VTA experience and very little with these new tables.

now the bigger question....brown or white?

edit: well I guess nevermind if you are actually running a BOV there might not be any rich condition issues.

Oh no no, there still are... just no where near as bad as a bypass valve. A blow off valve will still open on shifts and stuff, when there's moderate boost in the IC pipes (note i said IC pipes, and not intake manifold. Remember the T-body separates the two, and it's not uncommon to have considerable pressure in the IC pipes, even when the intake mani is still n vac).

Every time a bov opens, you'll lose a bit of metered air, and this will still result in a brief rich condition.


Back fires are at their worst when the rich conditions are followed with engine braking. Like when you build a lil boost, then just let off the gas all together. The AFRs will go rich at first right when you let off the gas, fill the exhaust with unburnt fuel. Then, once the injectors turn off while engine braking... the motor will be a simple air pump, passing lots of unburnt oxygen into the exhaust.

Once you have unburnt fuel and unburnt oxygen.... you usually get ignition and after fires (back fires).

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/o...2-04141011.jpg

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/o...n/hotpipe2.jpg

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/o...n/passside.jpg

http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/...9/DSC01042.jpg


EWG VTA FTW


http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/...9/DSC01038.jpg

omg so much VTA!!!! ZOMG!!

DOMP TOOBS

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/o...ngatessexy.jpg

So, to do this you don't hook up the vac line to the little nipple on the HKS?

Do I just plug the line?

No, you definitely need the vac line hooked up. Some of the pics above were just taken before everything was put back together.

You need to hook that line up, or you'll get bad compressor surge.

Thanks for clarifying. That was throwing me off. Didn't look right so i thought I'd ask.

NP amigo. I'm glad when people just ask, cause if you were a lil confused, that means several other people probably were too... which means there's a good chance someone is going to try it, hahaha.


Fuck fridays are so slow at work.... ugh.

ewg vta without the dump tube

http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/...9/DSC00960.jpg

I have the ultimate VTA gates... but i has no picture at work lol

@PapaSmurf

http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/...969/robms3.jpg

I want to VTA my DNP ewg manifold and my turbosmart kompact bpv.
So the GA is mandatory to run bpv vta?

Video of sweet ass TIAL Q (VTA Im running speed density) compressor surge on the Evo uploaded soon. Gonna go take a video on the GoPro LOL:)

You're getting surge? With a bov that big?

I'll be running a tial q on my ms3 once i got top mount :)

This thread got filled up fast!

Let me quickly explain what's going on with this VTA business.

The OEM, Forge, Greddy, etc. push type of valves have 3 forces acting on them:

1. Spring pressure always acting to close the valve
2. Vacuum/boost at the top of the valve. When under vacuum from the manifold (idle, closing the throttle), the valve is pulled open. When under boost at the manifold, the valve is pushed closed from this point.
3. Boost pressure against the bottom of the piston itself from the charge piping. This pushes the valve open under boost and provides no force when not under boost at the charge pipes. Remember charge pipes never see vacuum.

So under boost, both charge pipes and manifold see boost. Under vacuum (idle, low load), charge pipes see no pressure, manifold sees vacuum. This is explained below

Under boost, you have the spring and manifold boost source at the top trying to close the valve, and boost in the charge pipe on the bottom trying to open the valve. The spring and boost pressure forces from the top are hopefully stronger than the boost from the bottom so the valve stays closed. This is shown below.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1339193887

When you let go of the throttle, there is a spike in boost pressure from the bottom, and a pull from the vacuum in the manifold from the top (since the manifold is under vacuum when you let go of the gas). This means only the spring is trying to keep the valve closed and that's not enough acting against those other forces so it will open and let excess boost out.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1339193887

At idle, you have no boost pressure at the bottom in the charge pipes. You just have the spring pressure keeping the valve closed and vacuum from the top trying to open it. Depending on how soft the spring is, vacuum will start pulling the valve open. The OEM one starts to pull open at 15 inches of mercury. At sea level we idle at 21-22 for a healthy motor. So the valve will stay open and allow air to pass causing a leak. This will happen at idle and low loads and the car will run rich and like crap.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1339193887

As you apply more throttle, the vacuum at the top starts to be less strong, allowing the
valve to close and then you enter boost which I described above.

In order to stop the leak at idle (and when coasting and under light loads) you need a very stiff spring. This is all good and dandy until you realize that such a stiff spring will cause compressor surge since the valve won't open quickly enough or will close too soon when you let go of the throttle in boost since the stiff spring is keeping it shut.

Now where does the GA fit in here? Well, *most* push type valves such as the OEM one, even ones meant to VTA like the greddy have a hard time tuning the spring so that they don't leak at idle while also not causing compressor surge. @Daddy Chinkus complained about this and it sparked the idea of using the Guardian Angel to control the valve not just as a failsafe, but also to control it so that it stays shut under the idle and low throttle conditions. It also shuts if off quicker when letting off the throttle causing less backfiring etc. That way you can have your cake and eat it too. You can have a push type BPV such as the OEM one and run it VTA. You can even run the OEM one VTA which you won't be able to otherwise.

Fuck, hate being a noob to certain things, but what are you guys using to cap off the recirc inlet on the TIP?

I'm thinking a silicone or rubber hose cap with a clamp. Ace hardware, Lowe's?

Use one of these if using an inlet pipe and clamp it down. They come in all sizes.

http://popoki.info/img.php?fl=a406n4...z2w2u234r5n4g4

I am just testing now and I put a small plastic container and clamped it down in my recirc hose. That will be cleaned up later though.

Or get a plastic pvc plug. They sell them at home depot or lowes for a buck, thats what I did with mine or we have these in stock if you wanna be all pretty

http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/...25586_zoom.png

There are actually some differences in the 2d and 3d tables that I matched on one persons map to help with a rich condition.

I think you are onto something for sure with one of the tables adding some fuel that may be taken out.

I got the spring for the vacuum pressure I'll have after I install my GSC S2 cams. Therefore it's currently the wrong spring by a little bit. I think I got the 10psi spring in there now

Edit: I have the Precision billet surge protector on the turbo. Not a huge deal for a bit I'll swap out springs soon

So a crushed 1g dsm should be good? I wanna rice to scare walking foes

@Lex

is this change going to happen in a FW or software update for the GA and how do existing users get it loaded?

maybe a premature question...lol

I too have put in my red spring to keep my Forge closed but is causes waaay too much surge. back on the famous "blue 2 shims" setup

This is a software/FW change for now. I am going to build it in as a feature users can turn on or off as they choose. I need to do more testing. I actually need some different BPVs to test on.

Anyone willing to let me borrow a Forge, a Greddy, and anything else they are using?

Borrow logs or borrow them physically?


I know this is a dumb question and you mean physically but I know they aren't a ton of people running mine so I figured I'd ask...lol

:popcorn:

Looks like @PapaSmurf's condom collection.

Borrow physically. I'll pay shipping both ways and a little extra for the trouble.