VTA ...

[Lex]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 Not sure if that's DC Approved, or just jealous- Go pick out another speed6! Just like blowing an engine, only even bigger opportunity to start over!!

Daddy C mentioned this issue with his BPV and this is what got the wheels in motion in my head. He was going to run this with his Greddy

[TiGraySpeed6]

I wanted to hit "Thanks" for the info, but somehow it just doesn't seem right to use either Like or Thanks for such a sad thing...

[captain slow]

Originally Posted by Lex Funny how more people are interested in the VTA (rice ) feature than the failsafe aspect.

I still want one for its original intention!!!!

[Dash08]

Originally Posted by captain slow I still want one for its original intention!!!!

This^^^

I don't plan on running the stock valve anyway and I'm already VTA on the HKS. So, I wants guardian angel for protection. I already haz teh rice.

I just have to figure out how I'm gonna pay for a Stratified tune and a guardian angel. It's so tempting just to dump it all on the CC and have some fun, but I know exactly where that road leads.

[09Speed3Z]

WARNING: ULTRA NOOB POST

COBB Tuning MAF Block Off Plate

I know you can tune for VTA but isn't it much better (or "easier") to switch to a blow-through MAF for VTA duties??

Any correlation or testing done between the GA, a blow-through and VTA.

I realize that that is just basically a "plate" to eliminate the MAF positiion on the intake track but would it be worth it to switch to a blow-through with a GA?

This has been an ultra noob post ........ because Dumbtube

[dantes5823]

As long as the bov is before the blow thru maf I wouldn't see why a ga would be needed. Buttttt I'm not expert. Those guys would just have a solid pipe most of the time. But the plate makes it easier to just keep current setup.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by 09Speed3Z WARNING: ULTRA NOOB POST COBB Tuning MAF Block Off Plate I know you can tune for VTA but isn't it much better (or "easier") to switch to a blow-through MAF for VTA duties?? Any correlation or testing done between the GA, a blow-through and VTA. I realize that that is just basically a "plate" to eliminate the MAF positiion on the intake track but would it be worth it to switch to a blow-through with a GA? This has been an ultra noob post ........ because Dumbtube

It's a good question and it really depends on several things. The turbulence as the air is released from the BPV will affect the the MAF - the proximity does play a role. How much you will feel that during driving is a different story.

However if the BPV is open during idle and part throttle you will either pull or push unfiltered air through the BPV opening.

[Lex]

Got my first aftermarket BPV to test with the GA. It's the Turbosmart BPV pictured below:

Thank you @TiGraySpeed6!!



Here are my findings:

Stiff spring (20-25psi spring according to valve)

Without GA: The valve stayed closed at idle which is good if you want to run VTA. However the spring was so stiff that there was lots of part and even WOT surge

With GA: Things didn't change much. Since the top of the valve (vacuum chamber) leaks because this is not a diaphragm valve and relies on metal on metal sealing (no it does not seal). The same surge remained

Softer spring (10-20psi spring according to valve)

Without GA: This leaked at idle and part throttle badly in VTA. The surging was gone but car ran pig rich and stumbled between shifts.

With GA: Much better. No leaking at idle, smooth part throttle to WOT transition, clean blow off with a the slightest hint of surge after the blow off as the valve closes again to prevent air leaks. I liked it in this configuration.

The Turbosmart valve itself: This valve does not seal the top vacuum chamber ... so it's always leaking some vacuum. The response is slower than the stock BPV since it has a much softer spring than OEM (even the 20-25psi spring is much softer). With the GA you would not know this was not recirculating (aside from the WOOSH) but it should be run with the softer spring. Overall, not sure I would get this valve over OEM - the OEM is a more advanced design with a gasket at the flanged end. This valve is louder than OEM VTA and it drives slightly better than OEM VTA with the Guardian Angel since it responds slower and slightly slower responses make for smoother transitions.

Overall: So far, the OEM valve is the toughest to tune for VTA with the GA. A very stiff spring and twin vacuum chambers make for a very on/off response.

The good thing is that for people with the Turbosmart valve, the GA will allow you to run VTA with the softer spring and avoid surge with great driveability.

In summary, the GA will allow you (feature not released yet) to run a softer spring in any BPV/BOV which eliminates part throttle surge while also stopping the idle leaks and poor shifting/running rich extensively after a shift associated with running a softer spring. So you can have your rice and eat it too

[Dash08]

Originally Posted by Lex Got my first aftermarket BPV to test with the GA. It's the Turbosmart BPV pictured below: Thank you @TiGraySpeed6!! Here are my findings: Stiff spring (20-25psi spring according to valve) Without GA: The valve stayed closed at idle which is good if you want to run VTA. However the spring was so stiff that there was lots of part and even WOT surge With GA: Things didn't change much. Since the top of the valve (vacuum chamber) leaks because this is not a diaphragm valve and relies on metal on metal sealing (no it does not seal). The same surge remained Softer spring (10-20psi spring according to valve) Without GA: This leaked at idle and part throttle badly in VTA. The surging was gone but car ran pig rich and stumbled between shifts. With GA: Much better. No leaking at idle, smooth part throttle to WOT transition, clean blow off with a the slightest hint of surge after the blow off as the valve closes again to prevent air leaks. I liked it in this configuration. The Turbosmart valve itself: This valve does not seal the top vacuum chamber ... so it's always leaking some vacuum. The response is slower than the stock BPV since it has a much softer spring than OEM (even the 20-25psi spring is much softer). With the GA you would not know this was not recirculating (aside from the WOOSH) but it should be run with the softer spring. Overall, not sure I would get this valve over OEM - the OEM is a more advanced design with a gasket at the flanged end. This valve is louder than OEM VTA and it drives slightly better than OEM VTA with the Guardian Angel since it responds slower and slightly slower responses make for smoother transitions. Overall: So far, the OEM valve is the toughest to tune for VTA with the GA. A very stiff spring and twin vacuum chambers make for a very on/off response. The good thing is that for people with the Turbosmart valve, the GA will allow you to run VTA with the softer spring and avoid surge with great driveability. In summary, the GA will allow you (feature not released yet) to run a softer spring in any BPV/BOV which eliminates part throttle surge while also stopping the idle leaks and poor shifting/running rich extensively after a shift associated with running a softer spring. So you can have your rice and eat it too

This is good shit, man.

Have you found anyone willing to lend you an HKS SSQV yet?

I'm willing to let you borrow it for testing, although shipping back and forth may be a pain in the ass. I don't know, just an idea. There's got to be someone in Canada who has an HKS.

You've got me wondering if my flutter is actually surge.

[ms3rick]

Ssqv is not compatible with ga I'm pretty sure? Don't quote me

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Dash08 This is good shit, man. Have you found anyone willing to lend you an HKS SSQV yet? I'm willing to let you borrow it for testing, although shipping back and forth may be a pain in the ass. I don't know, just an idea. There's got to be someone in Canada who has an HKS. You've got me wondering if my flutter is actually surge.

The flutter is surge. Think of it as the blades of of a fan (the turbo) being forcefully slowed down by pressure against them from the front. The SSQV due to the design is more prone to surge and this is why it doesn't leak at idle. Also the GA can't open the SSQV under overboost conditions due to the fact that boost seals the valve unlike pull type valves.

[Dash08]

Originally Posted by Lex The flutter is surge. Think of it as the blades of of a fan (the turbo) being forcefully slowed down by pressure against them from the front. The SSQV due to the design is more prone to surge and this is why it doesn't leak at idle. Also the GA can't open the SSQV under overboost conditions due to the fact that boost seals the valve unlike pull type valves.

I think it's worth mentioning that I only get the flutter under low boost conditions. WOT blow offs are a clean whoosh. With that being the case, wouldn't the force of the surge be rather low and not so much of a concern with our ball bearing turbo as opposed to a journal bearing turbo that is much more vulnerable to surge damage?

Regardless, I was getting the flutter even in recirc. Another thing to note is the dual valve design on the HKS. There's essentially two separate valves. A smaller valve that handles low boost situations and another larger valve for high boost.

A part of me can't help but think that that small valve is somewhat responsible for that sound. The fact that every single person with an HKS reports fluttering leads me to this conclusion.

Also, if it were in fact surge that is occurring, wouldn't the flutter come before the discharge as opposed to after? Most cases of compressor surge i hear of occur directly before blow off.

[NRSpeed]

True Compressor Surge - YouTube

True Compressor Surge - YouTube

"True Surge" when under load = deadly.



Im wondering after looking at the HKS design if the "flutter" sound isnt actually surge but the large piston oscillating and causing the flutter sound.

Im thinking this could be tested with a "Boost Leak Detector" pressurizing the intake system on and then releasing the pressure on the BOV/BPV nipple allowing the charge to release.

If its surge the flutter sound would not be heard from a "manual" pressurization like this. But if the sound is caused by the HKS design then it would be heard with this method.

Thoughts?

[Dash08]

Originally Posted by NRSpeed True Compressor Surge - YouTube "True Surge" when under load = deadly. Im wondering after looking at the HKS design if the "flutter" sound isnt actually surge but the large piston oscillating and causing the flutter sound. Im thinking this could be tested with a "Boost Leak Detector" pressurizing the intake system on and then releasing the pressure on the BOV/BPV nipple allowing the charge to release. If its surge the flutter sound would not be heard from a "manual" pressurization like this. But if the sound is caused by the HKS design then it would be heard with this method. Thoughts?

Fuck man, that is horrid.

Mine is nothing close to that. The flutter happens with the whoosh under low boost and after you let off the gas. I'm pretty sure it's just the valve design.

We need to hook up a pressure tester and try this, that would confirm that the flutter is a result of the design itself.

[anavrinIV]

my hks flutter sounds nothing like that surge. I'm pretty sure that it's the valve design. also, I've taken a few logs with the hks and with the stock valve and the boost is nearly the same with both, even under low boost conditions.

fun story though, without changing anything in the tune and doing back to back runs (3-4 with each valve) on the same road within an hour I was consistently making more hp with the hks (via vd).

[Lex]

The low throttle flutter is mild with the HKS compared to full boost without a BPV. The HKS still does its job when the pressure differential is high and finally pops open.

[himurax13]

Originally Posted by Lex Got my first aftermarket BPV to test with the GA. It's the Turbosmart BPV pictured below: Thank you @TiGraySpeed6!! Here are my findings: Stiff spring (20-25psi spring according to valve) Without GA: The valve stayed closed at idle which is good if you want to run VTA. However the spring was so stiff that there was lots of part and even WOT surge With GA: Things didn't change much. Since the top of the valve (vacuum chamber) leaks because this is not a diaphragm valve and relies on metal on metal sealing (no it does not seal). The same surge remained Softer spring (10-20psi spring according to valve) Without GA: This leaked at idle and part throttle badly in VTA. The surging was gone but car ran pig rich and stumbled between shifts. With GA: Much better. No leaking at idle, smooth part throttle to WOT transition, clean blow off with a the slightest hint of surge after the blow off as the valve closes again to prevent air leaks. I liked it in this configuration. The Turbosmart valve itself: This valve does not seal the top vacuum chamber ... so it's always leaking some vacuum. The response is slower than the stock BPV since it has a much softer spring than OEM (even the 20-25psi spring is much softer). With the GA you would not know this was not recirculating (aside from the WOOSH) but it should be run with the softer spring. Overall, not sure I would get this valve over OEM - the OEM is a more advanced design with a gasket at the flanged end. This valve is louder than OEM VTA and it drives slightly better than OEM VTA with the Guardian Angel since it responds slower and slightly slower responses make for smoother transitions. Overall: So far, the OEM valve is the toughest to tune for VTA with the GA. A very stiff spring and twin vacuum chambers make for a very on/off response. The good thing is that for people with the Turbosmart valve, the GA will allow you to run VTA with the softer spring and avoid surge with great driveability. In summary, the GA will allow you (feature not released yet) to run a softer spring in any BPV/BOV which eliminates part throttle surge while also stopping the idle leaks and poor shifting/running rich extensively after a shift associated with running a softer spring. So you can have your rice and eat it too

Well I might be picking up a TS to go with a Guardian Angel that I will be picking up from you for my BNR Tune. Has anyone done any testing at 22 to 23 psi?

I could send you my HKS SSQ for testing as well.

My friends would be ecstatic to hear the ricer pshh from my quiet Sleeper Hatch.

[Dash08]

Still running VTA. LTFT's look good. Car feels tip top.

What can I say? I dig it.

Gotta take it easy around cops. She draws a little more attention than she used to.

[dantes5823]

@Lex hurry up already! Lol. My Tial is being a bitch. It either won't seal or it surges. No happy medium. I got it better after hours of fucking with it but not perfect. If your ga helps then I'll def buy this ASAP. And of course I'll send back Whatever info/ logs you need

[Lex]

Originally Posted by dantes5823 @Lex hurry up already! Lol. My Tial is being a bitch. It either won't seal or it surges. No happy medium. I got it better after hours of fucking with it but not perfect. If your ga helps then I'll def buy this ASAP. And of course I'll send back Whatever info/ logs you need

Doing all I can Yes, it definitely helps. You can run a much softer spring with the GA because you're no longer trying to seal it at idle or part throttle. I am still test-running a Turbosmart with the soft spring and it drives like stock ... except for the whoosh.

[himurax13]

Originally Posted by Lex Doing all I can Yes, it definitely helps. You can run a much softer spring with the GA because you're no longer trying to seal it at idle or part throttle. I am still test-running a Turbosmart with the soft spring and it drives like stock ... except for the whoosh.

Me wants the ricey whoosh!!!

[dantes5823]

Originally Posted by Lex Doing all I can Yes, it definitely helps. You can run a much softer spring with the GA because you're no longer trying to seal it at idle or part throttle. I am still test-running a Turbosmart with the soft spring and it drives like stock ... except for the whoosh.

So say i want to buy the GA tomorrow....would it come with said name new feature?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by dantes5823 So say i want to buy the GA tomorrow....would it come with said name new feature?

I will make a final announcement when they will include this feature. I am planning 1-2 weeks release timeframe.

If you already had a GA, it would need new software to enable this so it's doable but more of a hassle.

[dantes5823]

Originally Posted by Lex I will make a final announcement when they will include this feature. I am planning 1-2 weeks release timeframe. If you already had a GA, it would need new software to enable this so it's doable but more of a hassle.

Your killing me here lol. I'll being waiting for it then.

[Lex]

Just finished testing the Forge valve in VTA. Works very well with the GA and blue spring + 2 shims. I took some videos but the sound is terrible so I will have to redo that. However, I did take some logs to show you the difference between running a BPV VTA with the GA ON and with the GA OFF (or not installed). For some of you that have tried a push type BPV in VTA you know what tuning it is tough and usually you either get compressor surge or poor idle and stumbles between shifts. This should fix that

[mrtheandrew]

How much louder is the ninja fight with VTA?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by mrtheandrew How much louder is the ninja fight with VTA?

There's more whooshing ... I will get it on video - just need to mount the camera better.

[theschrum]

@Lex,
I can send you my GReddy Type S if needed. I think I have both the springs for it, but I don't have an extra adapter to send.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by theschrum @Lex, I can send you my GReddy Type S if needed. I think I have both the springs for it, but I don't have an extra adapter to send.

I'm actually pretty satisfied with how things are right now. The GA is tuned juuusst right for a nice fast response with as little surge as possible. So when someone turns on this feature in the GA with their BPV, if they're currently getting any flutter, the spring needs to be softened up a bit ... and no it won't leak at idle.

If you'd like me to specifically try the Type S for you before you purchase the GA, I can certainly throw it on. PM me if that's the case.

[dantes5823]

Oh man. To keep or sell my Tial. It's in your hands lex lol

[Lex]

Originally Posted by dantes5823 Oh man. To keep or sell my Tial. It's in your hands lex lol

Why sell it?

[m249saw]

Originally Posted by Lex Why sell it?

Indeed why sell? Especially since I have one on the way.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[dantes5823]

Like I said to both. On vta it either won't seal or if you put a washer on it, it seals but surges. In recirc it was fine. But vta is a pain.

That's why I was thinking either sell it and just get the dual port and not waste any cash. Or keep this and get the GA

[Dash08]

I can't believe it took so long to get a technical approach to BPV's and BOV's.

Prior to this, the general response to any BPV related question was,

"search, donate, or GTFO noob."

[Dano]

hahahahaahahah

you forgot "go back over to 247 n00b"

so very true indeed!

[himurax13]

Originally Posted by Dano hahahahaahahah you forgot "go back over to 247 n00b" so very true indeed!

I thought it was more like "GTFO Ricer!!"

[Stangcobra]

Before everyone calls me a ricer I already know. I decided to test the stock valve vta using a cap to block off the recirc line to the tip with the hose clamp. So far the car has run...quite rich to say the least, but I have noticed absolutely no compressor surge. The car actually seems to be slightly more responsive and *seems* to leak less at idle. I am running stg1 +sure v2 intake +cobb tip

[Dash08]

Originally Posted by Dano hahahahaahahah you forgot "go back over to 247 n00b" so very true indeed!

LOL! Funniest part about that, most of the noobs asking about BPV's were from 247.

Originally Posted by himurax13 I thought it was more like "GTFO Ricer!!"

This was said as well. You'd be surprised how creative some of our members can be when it comes to noob bashing techniques. That shit is an art form around here.

[Ziggo]

Arregghh.

I relocated my XLE BPV in prep for 5th port, and my fears were correct, COBB says the XLE can function as a BOV, but they lie. You just can't get enough preload on it to keep it closed at idle.

I just spent $70 on a samco superflex hose to recirculate from its current position, that money could have put me that much closer to a GA instead. What is the timeline on this?


Zigatapatalka

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Ziggo I just spent $70 on a samco superflex hose to recirculate from its current position, that money could have put me that much closer to a GA instead. What is the timeline on this? Zigatapatalka

ahem..

gotta keep up with the Jones' [me]

Getting a GA is a stupid easy decision IMO