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 Old 04-24-2011, 09:09 PM   #1
 
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Default My MS6 VVT and chain fix (Engine builders please look here)

Well my MS6 died so i thought i would share the repairing of a timing chain on a VVT

first i cleaned the engine bay



Then i started to take it apart.
Is that oil in the intercooler.... Ah stupid PCV valve...

that carbon is from the freash air inlet to the crankcase... shouldn't the air be going in not out?...



Day two,



EGR tube

EGR tube Plus something...

Chain left scars

Overall it was nice and clean in there





Update,



Little wear for 103k on the motor.

what died next to the new one

that isn't shipped as a slot

where they heat treated the part so that it lasts more then 100k

ford doesn't believe in keyways, no instead for those that haven't seen it let me introduce the "friction washer".... Also nothing is a press fit.

stretched chain



primer

krinkle paint
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 Old 04-24-2011, 09:22 PM   #2
 
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Ok this is were is starts to suck. I finished putting the car all back together i start it and is sounds like i forgot to put the new tensioner or pull the release pin on it. I have the release pin so i know i did.

Sometime the chain is tight, other times is is not. I can grab the chain after it runs pull up on and and get it to go slack.

I am very worried that i messed the bottom end up and tomorrow i am pulling the pan.

The method i used to tighten the chain was to leave the VVt bolt loose well i installed the chain.
The cams were being held by the Sure alignment plate and crank by the peg.
After i installed the tensioner and removed the release pin i then tighted the the VVt bolt.
I installed the front cover and balancer
Then i installed the crank bolt and torqued it down.
Everything seemed great, but my motor sounds like a tin full of marbles.....

Any advice at this point would be great.

Thank you,
John
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 Old 04-25-2011, 05:54 AM   #3
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-You should unbolt both cams so the sprockets are loose (preferably)
-Put chain in place
-Pull tensioner pin
-Check for even tensioner in all parts of chain, up top in between the cams, below down by the oil pump sprocket
-With Cam alignment tool in place tighten the sprockets down
-Pull alignment tool. You will notice the exhaust cam stays 100% but the intake cam moves counterclockwise or in the direction of engine movement. <- Which I dont like. Stupid Mazda Engineers
-Preferably put crank sprocket in place and bolt it down lightly and rotate engine 2 full turns to check for valve clearance and at that time the tensioner may become more tense.
-Use impact or other method to break the crank sprocket loose and reinstall front cover or if timing is off repeat above procedure.
-Now with front cover in place install crank sprocket (making sure you place the sprocket in position for TDC!
-Reinstall all pulleys and belt as well as crank position sensor. Be mindful when installing and removing this sensor as it has the capability of advancing and retarding timing. It needs to be exactly where it was when you removed it.
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 Old 04-25-2011, 06:32 AM   #4
 
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Did you replace the crank bolt because it is a torque to yield bolt?
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 Old 04-25-2011, 08:06 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Tech/Sales@EM View Post
-You should unbolt both cams so the sprockets are loose (preferably)
-Put chain in place
-Pull tensioner pin
-Check for even tensioner in all parts of chain, up top in between the cams, below down by the oil pump sprocket
-With Cam alignment tool in place tighten the sprockets down
-Pull alignment tool. You will notice the exhaust cam stays 100% but the intake cam moves counterclockwise or in the direction of engine movement. <- Which I dont like. Stupid Mazda Engineers
-Preferably put crank sprocket in place and bolt it down lightly and rotate engine 2 full turns to check for valve clearance and at that time the tensioner may become more tense.
-Use impact or other method to break the crank sprocket loose and reinstall front cover or if timing is off repeat above procedure.
-Now with front cover in place install crank sprocket (making sure you place the sprocket in position for TDC!
-Reinstall all pulleys and belt as well as crank position sensor. Be mindful when installing and removing this sensor as it has the capability of advancing and retarding timing. It needs to be exactly where it was when you removed it.

This is the correct info ^^^^^. Your method set the cam timing pretty far off. I just hope your valve(s) didn't hit any of the pistons....

Note that you should use the old crank bolt and a few washers or a socket to space it out and have something to snug up to when rotaing the engine by hand.
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 Old 04-25-2011, 08:35 AM   #6
 
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Originally Posted by Tech/Sales@EM View Post
-You should unbolt both cams so the sprockets are loose (preferably)
1. Put chain in place
2. Pull tensioner pin
3. Check for even tensioner in all parts of chain, up top in between the cams, below down by the oil pump sprocket
4. With Cam alignment tool in place tighten the sprockets down
5. Pull alignment tool. You will notice the exhaust cam stays 100% but the intake cam moves counterclockwise or in the direction of engine movement. <- Which I dont like. Stupid Mazda Engineers
6. Preferably put crank sprocket in place and bolt it down lightly and rotate engine 2 full turns to check for valve clearance and at that time the tensioner may become more tense.
7. Use impact or other method to break the crank sprocket loose and reinstall front cover or if timing is off repeat above procedure.
8. Now with front cover in place install crank sprocket (making sure you place the sprocket in position for TDC!
9. Reinstall all pulleys and belt as well as crank position sensor. Be mindful when installing and removing this sensor as it has the capability of advancing and retarding timing. It needs to be exactly where it was when you removed it.
1. When does the crank peg come out?
2. Doesn't the chain mechanically couple the cam and crank sprockets? Step 6. makes it seem like the crank sprocket doesn't need to be there prior to tensing the chain, and then in step 7, we just take it off?
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 Old 04-25-2011, 09:53 AM   #7
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1) Hard to answer safely. Ideally it should be their before you dissasmble everything so that you know when parts come off where exactly the crank and cams are in relation to each other. Now when you get to 6 you have to leave the peg in place to tighten the sprocket and bolt just enough so the motor turns. then turn the motor to make sure your timing is sound and as you approach the end of your two turns put that peg back in place to stop the motor from turning and pull out your impact gun to knock that bolt loose so you can put everything together like the front plate and pulleys etc or redo the timing chain if something wasnt right.

Yes they are coupled persay but picture this: 3 different set ups. One car has the cam sprockets like above. 2nd car has cam sprockets with 3x as many teeth and 3rd car has 3x less The car with more teeth will have more areas where the chain comes in contact with the sprocket and less chance for a gap. Now the chain with the very few teeth has far less areas of contact meaning that the one tooth that it grabs could be so far off in relation to the exhaust cam that the chain is so loose that it droops or so extremely tight its about to explode. Thats why you really would want both sprockets loose so that when you pull tensioner pin the chain will adjust both sprockets in relation to eachother and you will have equal tension before and after the exhaust sprockets but also in between the sprockets!

So to answer you yes. You only need to put that crank sprocket on to turn motor as it wont turn without it in place. It makes more sense to turn motor over by hand prior to putting the front cover on as if you had a problem you would want to have to take it off and redo everything over. Way to much time wasted. So yes in step six put it on briefly to check your work and then take it back off and either fix your mistakes or put everything back together as you have checked your work and the car is solid.
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 Old 04-25-2011, 12:47 PM   #8
 
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Thank you Tech/sales@em for the instructions. Reviewing what you wrote I would say I made a few errors and I hope I didn't really mess it up. The major errors are that I didn't loosen the exhaust sprocket and I left the cam tool in well I tightened the new crank bolt. I did make sure that there was good tension between the cams, but I will follow the above method when I redue it.
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 Old 04-25-2011, 12:54 PM   #9
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You can do it without loosening the cam sprocket. I just dont advise it. That way both sprockets are evenly spaced per the links and given tension. You can also leave the cam bar in place. That wont leave trouble you as the plug would stop the crank from moving in the first place. So if the crank doesnt spin then neither will the cams.

I say something else went foul along the lines.......

I can add one thing. I played around with the system for hours. I think its a wise idea to spray some brake cleaner on the cam bolts and the cams themselves (the threaded portion) so that when you torque them down the torque values are true. Oil can throw that off. I also torqued mine to 65 vs 55. Not condone that Im just saying thats one thing I did to limit the amount of intake cam movement.

In the end I am about to start my car and hope to not have issues as you did. I would not be happy.
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 Old 04-25-2011, 01:05 PM   #10
 
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You keep mentioning impact wrenches -- is there any reason why this couldn't be accomplished with proper hand tools?

Thanks for the thorough response, by the way. Still in the process of diagnosing other things on my car at the moment, but I'll definitely contact you when I'm ready for timing tools.
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 Old 04-25-2011, 01:44 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by vbt101 View Post
You keep mentioning impact wrenches -- is there any reason why this couldn't be accomplished with proper hand tools?

Thanks for the thorough response, by the way. Still in the process of diagnosing other things on my car at the moment, but I'll definitely contact you when I'm ready for timing tools.
No but I didnt have any facotry SST, I didnt have the oil pan off so I couldnt lock the crank that way and also had the tranny on so couldnt lock the crank that way.
you could however just put the front cover on and hold it with a couple bolts to use the hole drilled into it to allow you to position the crank pully in TDC position and use the M6 bolt to hold it from moving while you break the bolt loose.
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 Old 04-26-2011, 05:56 AM   #12
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-You should unbolt both cams so the sprockets are loose (preferably)
1. Put chain in place
2. Pull tensioner pin
3. Check for even tension in all parts of chain, up top in between the cams, below down by the oil pump sprocket
4. With Cam alignment tool in place tighten the sprockets down
5. Pull alignment tool. You will notice the exhaust cam stays 100% in place but the intake cam moves counterclockwise or in the direction of engine movement. <- Which I dont like. Stupid Mazda Engineers
6. Put crank sprocket in place or instal front cover with a couple screws and then instal crank pulley and bolt it down lightly (just enough to turn crank) and rotate engine 2 full turns to check for valve clearance and at that time the tensioner may become more tense.
7. Use impact or other method to break the crank sprocket loose and reinstall front cover or if timing is off repeat above procedure. (Note if you installed the front cover in step 6 then you can utilize the M6 hole as long as crank pully was in TDC with the crank to knock the crank pully loose. Also note this is not a preferred method of breaking bolt loose as you run the risk of breaking the M6 bolt inside the front cover. However if you are carefully enough it can be done safely.)
8. Instal Front cover with sealant in factory designated areas, with front cover in place install crank sprocket (making sure you place the sprocket in position for TDC!
9. Reinstall all pulleys and belt as well as crank position sensor. Be mindful when installing and removing this sensor as it has the capability of advancing and retarding timing. It needs to be exactly where it was when you removed it.



Their Fixed.
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 Old 04-26-2011, 06:51 PM   #13
 
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Well i checked the timing and it is ok so i am moving on in the search....
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 Old 04-26-2011, 07:04 PM   #14
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stickeying this, too much good info to be lost.
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 Old 04-27-2011, 08:33 PM   #15
 
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Ok update.

I have started to go deeper into the motor and it looks like i have a bad tensioner....

The metal is coming from the timing chain and that would seem to go with tight, not tight, then tight but you can pull it loose.

see attached pics

New crank tool/pin i made


I cut a M6-1mm shoulder bolt down so that the balancer wuld be better located for TDC


A trick i did so that i wouldn't have to touch the crank sensor to remove the front cover was install a SHCS. It allows you to acess it without loosing the sensor position.


Metal on the new tensioner arm



Well that is all for today.

I guess i should note that i could not see or feel anything wrong with the new tensioner....
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 Old 04-28-2011, 06:41 AM   #16
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Some pics. I will identify some things when I have a moment to ps them.






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 Old 05-07-2011, 07:39 PM   #17
 
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well i got the mazda 2.3 disi manual from onlinemazdaparts.com. FYI not worth buying.

Well i checked the tensioner, the OCV, the little screen for the OCV, the VVT actuator( yes i took it apart).

I cannot find a single thing wrong with the f'n thing!!! I am ready to burn this FoMoCo POS.
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 Old 05-07-2011, 08:33 PM   #18
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Im willing to bet their was nothing wrong with mine either even tho they say thats what is the route cause of the problem. I dont buy it.
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 Old 05-17-2011, 08:56 PM   #19
 
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Ok this thread has become a engine build thread as i have pulled this whole motor apart looking for reasons that the chain will not stay tight.

The build will just be stock refresh. New bearings, oil pump,timing gears, and ring on a fresh hone, with ARP head and main studs. My new issue is that the rod bolts are on back order from onlinemazdaparts.... and ARP does not make M8x1.0-40-45 (measured 44.5mm) rod bolts or i would have them....

So this is my question does anyone know were i can get 8 of l3k911214?

Also i found that cosworth has some duratec stock replacement rod bolts pr7092 and pr7145. Does anyone know if they are the same thread pitch and length? they are not cheap but i hope they have them in stock and if they do i will go that route.

Well that is it for now... Oh one last thing, how much does are stock flywheel wieght? i just got my ACT clutch and OMFG, lightened wheel my ass.

(edit) I have found that i had the wrong part number i guess it seems we need LF01-11-214A
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 Old 05-31-2011, 07:38 PM   #20
 
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Ok, I just finished the tear down on mine, but isn't the crank timing bolt supposed to be on a flat spot of the crankshaft. I am looking at another thread and there is a flat spot of the crankshaft. If the camshafts are in the right timing position, but the crankshaft is in the wrong position the noise you may be hearing are the valves hitting the piston. I may be wrong about the flat spot, but it's worth looking into.

Here is the link to the other thread. Look at the picture of the crank bolt.

Replacing timing chain
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 Old 05-31-2011, 10:48 PM   #21
 
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Originally Posted by troubled81 View Post
well i got the mazda 2.3 disi manual from onlinemazdaparts.com. FYI not worth buying.

Well i checked the tensioner, the OCV, the little screen for the OCV, the VVT actuator( yes i took it apart).

I cannot find a single thing wrong with the f'n thing!!! I am ready to burn this FoMoCo POS.
Fyi, if you wouldve donated to the site and not stayed a brownie, you couldve downloaded the manual.
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 Old 06-01-2011, 06:59 PM   #22
 
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Ok, After tearing my down I just realized I did the wrong steps and now I am also off timing. Looking at your pictures the crank peg is definitely not sitting on the flat spot throwing your timing off. I also rotated the crank without the peg in and now I am off time. I now have the peg on the flat spot, but I am off time. So, now I have to figure out how to get it back to correct timing. Good luck with the tear down. Keep us posted.
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 Old 06-01-2011, 10:06 PM   #23
 
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Originally Posted by jroc View Post
Fyi, if you wouldve donated to the site and not stayed a brownie, you couldve downloaded the manual.

No one told me too but thank you for the heads up,

Well i have bigger issues,




And no i have never hydrolocked the motor, and there are no marks on the piston dome so there was no contact there.... Also i have never bounced the motor of the rev limiter or any thing like that... How does a forged steel rod bend without damaging the bearing or the piston...

looks like i am doing a full build now. Pauter or Carillo rods? Now i need to read the build threads....

Thank you for the note about the peg i will look into it further.

I am really solidifying my distaste for this motor.
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 Old 06-02-2011, 04:00 AM   #24
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Well hit me up for whatever you need. I have Wisecos here and eagle rods. But can source you Pauter if you like. As well as your OEM parts like bearings and what not.
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 Old 06-03-2011, 07:10 PM   #25
 
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Well doing the work thing I realized why the rod started to make noise after I did the chain.

A few weeks before the motor died I had my scan tool on the car and was loging things when I noticed at WOT that I was running -6 to -9 degrees of timing. When I heard the the VVT actuator die i figured it was the motor hearing it before I did.

As we all know after the computer sits for long time with the battery off it resets the factory timing ( like me doing the chain) so when I started the car back up after fixing everything the computer advanced the timing back to stock and the piston started to slap.

So I guess the lesson here is Always do a compression check on any car you by.....

I'm just happy to have all the peices of the puzzle and a good reason for the rod showing up after doing the chain.
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 Old 06-03-2011, 07:29 PM   #26
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Glad you figured your car issues and have a road paved to fixing her.
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 Old 06-06-2011, 09:18 PM   #27
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I have one more of these kits the timing parts I would like to get out of here and offload to someone. PM
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 Old 06-07-2011, 09:12 AM   #28
 
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thank you for the offer, PM me the price.

Anyway here are some interesting pics i took...



I can say this because of were i work, but the only castings that get hand scribed are prototypes and they are not for public sale. So WTF


Just a nice pic i think. Good colours and focal depth.

Direct injection for the fail here
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 Old 06-07-2011, 09:21 AM   #29
 
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I've ran into a similiar problem, albeit my chain and VVT seemed to be ok. Ya, wish I had done a compression check before I bought it :S

My rods were ok from what I remembered. I too made my own crank peg and too originally had it hitting the bump part of the crank balancer instead of the flat part. Now I just have to advance my intake cam as I used the vvt side bolt to align it up with the exhaust cam (used an allen key to fix the exhaust cam in place). Not an easy engine but when you have the tools it is
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 Old 06-07-2011, 10:50 AM   #30
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Subbed for all the great info. Doing my tensioner and chain in a couple weeks. Not looking forward to it.
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 Old 06-07-2011, 11:10 AM   #31
 
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I don't know about you guys, but I needed a real heavy duty air impact wrench to take that crank pulley bolt out. We're talking over 800lbs lol. Oh, DO the proper torque specs and then that 90 degree turn. My bolt came loose at two different points making me replace two exhaust valves each time. Im good at it now :S
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 Old 06-07-2011, 11:21 AM   #32
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Fuck I don't want to do this job
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 Old 06-13-2011, 08:03 AM   #33
 
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Well boys, had to pretty much the same job this weekend :S My chain and tensioner seem ok but when I did my intake cam last time (no, I didn't have no fancy $130 cam plate) got retarted big time (adjusted using the end instead of the shaft). When I let the chain off the cams the intake cam vvt sproket spun forward lol. Just putting her back together tonight. Its too bad that these engines require special tools just to time them.
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 Old 06-13-2011, 09:16 AM   #34
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You should have just rented a set to time it properly.
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 Old 06-16-2011, 02:50 PM   #35
 
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my mazda 3 MPS also has the F Uped timing chain and VVT so i orderd all the parts from streetunit including the expansive tools...

so its time for a new chain, chain tensioner and VVT

ofcourse replacing the front oilseal and Krankpully bolt als also a new coper ring for the exhaust valve sprocket and headgasket set!

not included ofcourse will be the scars that you will be getting from the hugh amount of space in the enginebay...

so whit this guide and the mazdaspeed manual this should be a easy job to either grenade the engine or let it run like its brandnew
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 Old 06-20-2011, 06:36 PM   #36
 
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best of luck, the vvt/ chain was straight forward with the tools.

Finding out my rod was bent was alot harder.
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 Old 06-26-2011, 10:02 AM   #37
 
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OMG!!! how do i get the freaking crankpully bolt off.... i tryed a impact gun i tryed holding the pully in place and just kingkong force.... dint work... any tips please?? i have seen some video's on youtube useing the starter engine to get it loos but iam not really happy doing that... tips please
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 Old 06-26-2011, 10:04 AM   #38
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add a few ft/lbs to tighten it a hair, and it should come off after that. it's not that it's on too tight, it's just stuck.
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 Old 06-26-2011, 12:24 PM   #39
 
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Yeah, that bolt is a real SOB to get off. My 850lbs breaking air impact wrench takes a few blips to even crack the bolt lol. Try the tighten method first and then use the impact gun. Do it in bursts as you might have to do it a couple times.
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 Old 06-26-2011, 02:43 PM   #40
 
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well i went medival on that POS Crank bolt thank god for the starter motor and some YouTube TopTips...

The Metod i used... woodenblocks 21MM socket and than the power of the starter engine to get that KANKER KRUK AS BOUT off

1st try!!! thats a fail...


3th try THATS A WIN!!!!

o yeh and the freaking Timing chain it self... (whit Special Thanks to my buddy whit the voice over)

so this is the end of Day 1 next up is the real work!!!
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Mazda 3 2.3 questionnement. - Mazda 3 Quebec This thread Refback 02-14-2013 04:59 PM

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