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-   -   2010+ Mazdaspeed 3, I recommend to monitor your fuel pumps closely (http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f633/2010-mazdaspeed-3-i-recommend-monitor-your-125101/)

Nataphen 01-18-2011 11:21 AM

2010+ Mazdaspeed 3, I recommend to monitor your fuel pumps closely
 
Since Cobb recently discovered that the gen 2 ECU tends to max out the stock CDFP (camshaft driven fuel pump), I personally would recommend to any of you new to this car and planning to mod it that being prepared for a CDFP upgrade be your priority. The gen 2 ECU has been shown to max out the CDFP with as little as an intake and extremely mild tune, maybe less in some cases. The first money that you should spend when you plan to mod your car is on a datalogger.

Unfortunately, I have not led by example in this instance, but if I can help to keep anyone new from having problems, then I'm doing one of my biggest jobs here. It's a good idea to have the money ready to get one when you start changing things. Do NOT use PTP pumps, the only options that I would currently recommend are:

-CP-E direct replacement pump
-KMD internals with a VERY GOOD installer/installation
-Autotech internals with a VERY GOOD installer/installation

If there are more options that become proven over time, I will update this sticky. Thanks for reading and happy modding.


--Nate

m4tic 01-18-2011 11:29 AM

maxing out how so? what pressure does the factory tune command?

BLK_MS3 01-18-2011 11:33 AM

I was just reading about this. Sucks. as I wanted to just do the SRI and a basic tune. Now, it looks like I have to just do the SRI. Crazy that the stock pump is so limited. The stock pump in my Camaro was good until I hit about 425 whp, then I had to swap it. But that was a 100 whp gain over stock before I had to swap it....

ebnash 01-18-2011 11:33 AM

Just as a heads up, I believe CP-E uses auto tech internals to build their pumps. I have found a source for auto tech internals and they are currently in stock. They are, however about $400 for a kit.

If anyone is interested, I will post the information, but I cannot attest to success in shade tree installations of the auto tech internals components. I myself would rather wait for the KMD kits or CP-E pumps to be available because of there proven success here on this forum...

Nataphen 01-18-2011 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmorrisj (Post 693770)
maxing out how so? what pressure does the factory tune command?

The pump itself is actually a little better than the gen 1, but the new ECU stresses it more when the boost is increased. If you want to read up about it in depth, the Cobb alpha tester thread in the gen 2 tuning section has all the info. Basically, if the FRP drops below 1600psi, the ECU increases IPW (injector pulse width) to too high of a degree for the stock CDFP to keep pressure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebnash (Post 693777)
I myself would rather wait for the KMD kits or CP-E pumps to be available because of there proven success here on this forum...

Exactly.

Spoofmastafly 01-18-2011 11:48 AM

Well all i've gotten from the alpha testing thread is the stock CDFP will be fine till you raise boost PSI. Cobb will have OTS maps that don't do this for owners without a HPFP.

I'm running a Corksport intake/tip UR highflow catted DP, TP, and CBE.. and I've got no issues with the my fuel pressure dropping below 1600PSI. Fuel pump keeps up fine.. now once I raise boost pressure with the AP I'm sure I will need internals.. such is why I've already got mine ordered threw KMD.

No need to try to scare every gen2 owner into buying a HPFP first. I've has no issues what so ever.. We should scare every gen2 owner into NOT going catless.. which will cause boost spikes and creeps.. and then we will blow...

Nataphen 01-18-2011 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nataphen
The first money that you should spend when you plan to mod your car is on a datalogger.

I said with a tune and raised boost levels. With the AP coming out soon, it's pretty safe to say that a tune will be at the top of the list for new guys. I said to get a datalogger first, the headline is more to grab people's attention at the possible severity of this issue. Just because you haven't had a problem also doesn't mean that someone else won't.

Everyone should get a datalogger before they start modding. When they notice a problem, the pump should be replaced.

jrotaryb 01-18-2011 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spoofmastafly (Post 693803)
Well all i've gotten from the alpha testing thread is the stock CDFP will be fine till you raise boost PSI. Cobb will have OTS maps that don't do this for owners without a HPFP.

I'm running a Corksport intake/tip UR highflow catted DP, TP, and CBE.. and I've got no issues with the my fuel pressure dropping below 1600PSI. Fuel pump keeps up fine.. now once I raise boost pressure with the AP I'm sure I will need internals.. such is why I've already got mine ordered threw KMD.

No need to try to scare every gen2 owner into buying a HPFP first. I've has no issues what so ever.. We should scare every gen2 owner into NOT going catless.. which will cause boost spikes and creeps.. and then we will blow...

So, Corksport's "stage 1" intake/racpipe combo is not a wise place to start? I'm picking up my 2011 this week and was planning to order.

However, if it's dangerous to remove the main cat with the stock ECU I'll go with the intake only...

BLK_MS3 01-18-2011 11:59 AM

So a more basic plug in tuner like the Hypertech should be ok from what I gather?

Nataphen 01-18-2011 12:00 PM

As I said, I would get a datalogger first. Bolt-ons should be fine in most cases, as long as you do not raise your boost levels. Datalogger first IMO, and I stick to that.

Hypertech doesn't have a 2010+ unit yet. I don't know what it will be like if and when it comes out.

clowncar 01-18-2011 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z1 Performance (Post 693817)
So, Corksport's "stage 1" intake/racpipe combo is not a wise place to start? I'm picking up my 2011 this week and was planning to order.

However, if it's dangerous to remove the main cat with the stock ECU I'll go with the intake only...

You should be fine with the stock pump on those mods. Nataphen is simply suggesting that if you plan to get a downpipe or anything that adds more power down the road that you save yourself some potential heartache and buy a new HPFP or internals. I am an alpha tester for Cobb and they had to tone back the tune on mine because we were already going beyond what the fuel pump can handle. And that was stage1 with a SRI only

Nataphen 01-18-2011 12:07 PM

OP and title reworded to tone down a bit, LOL.

jrotaryb 01-18-2011 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clowncar (Post 693824)
You should be fine with the stock pump on those mods. Nataphen is simply suggesting that if you plan to get a downpipe or anything that adds more power down the road that you save yourself some potential heartache and buy a new HPFP or internals. I am an alpha tester for Cobb and they had to tone back the tune on mine because we were already going beyond what the fuel pump can handle. And that was stage1 with a SRI only

Thanks - I was really only planning on the CS intake and racepipe, and keeping everything else stock in terms of powertrain and ECU.

ebnash 01-18-2011 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spoofmastafly (Post 693803)
Well all i've gotten from the alpha testing thread is the stock CDFP will be fine till you raise boost PSI. Cobb will have OTS maps that don't do this for owners without a HPFP.

I'm running a Corksport intake/tip UR highflow catted DP, TP, and CBE.. and I've got no issues with the my fuel pressure dropping below 1600PSI. Fuel pump keeps up fine.. now once I raise boost pressure with the AP I'm sure I will need internals.. such is why I've already got mine ordered threw KMD.

No need to try to scare every gen2 owner into buying a HPFP first. I've has no issues what so ever.. We should scare every gen2 owner into NOT going catless.. which will cause boost spikes and creeps.. and then we will blow...

I understand that is what you have experienced with your set-up, but I have only a CS SRI/TIP and Racepipe and I logged last week seeing pressures drop below 1200. There is no absolute formula to run completely safe on these engines. Everyone sees something different. Also, with my mods I saw some boost spikes to 18 psi in 3rd gear so you don't need major bolt-ons to cause issues. I would think you should definitely see boost spikes installing a downpipe whether it is catted or not.

I think the most important item here is that you should have some data monitoring system if you are going to mod. When I installed the ETS top mount, I had all kinds of surging under boost. I removed it and it went away, but my fuel rail pressures are still not stable with the intake and RP.

Nataphen 01-18-2011 12:14 PM

Thanks very much, ebnash. Your situation shows what I'm trying to get across. Datalogging is very important, even with mild mods. No two cars are going to react the same to changes.

bertrand_CX_7 01-18-2011 12:31 PM

I spooke with CP-e today regarding upgraded HPFP.

My little concern is, both my cars (CX-7 with 25.000 miles and my speed3 with 1100 miles on it) . The fuel pumps ran farely less miles.

Swapping those to a new CP-e pump is kind of ... Because I don't know how old and how many miles the cores used to "re-build" the CP-e upgraded HPFP ran.

Is that something to be concerned about?

So far I don't abuse my cars so the pump cores should still be OK (35.000/3 years). Now the best option for me the money will be to use the KMD kit to upgrade my stocker FP.

I'm kind of undecided between CP-2 pump and KMD internals. Do we have any update from other users, i.e, how long their KMD kit did last? Also since you mentioned the Gen2 pump is a little bit better than the Gen1, it make my choice even harder.

Since I really plan to beat the shit out of my speed3 , Should I go with the CP-e pump, in the event of any issue, I should be cover under their live time warranty.

Any advice?

PapaSmurf 01-18-2011 12:33 PM

Picking a CPe Pump whenever there available. Can't wait to get this mod out of the way so i have more room to growwww!

DISIindahead 01-18-2011 12:35 PM

Hmm this is concerning me a little. I am running Cobb SRI and Ebay DP with the stock testpipe and no way to monitor. This is what i get for breaking the head of one of the DP bolts :hitwithrock: so i cant put the stock DP back on..As far as i can tell nothing but a CEL on but like i said, no way to monitor. Hopefully i can get my neighbor to get the bolt out and rethread it so i can put the stock DP back on. Lesson for all the Genpu nOObs, listen to what your fellow members say before u go and start modding your car!

Nataphen 01-18-2011 12:35 PM

Talk to CPE about the pump core, that is not a decision that I can make for them. I like the idea of the CPE pump better because it is warrantied, the pump is tested, and it is drop in ready. KMD internals seem to be good, though there have been some that have failed. It's very easy to mess up the internals install, so a large majority of the failures may very well be because of the installer.

Monotonous ONE 01-18-2011 12:38 PM

^^CPE pump has a lifetime warranty and theres a reason for that. It is absolutely NOT something you need to worry about.





I haz CPE fuel pump as of this week

And im telling you...my shit runs smoother.


i only have sri, testpipe, ets tmic but in the cold...while getting on it a little bit...it just didnt feel right. now theres no hiccups.

i dont have a way to monitor though so it could be me just imagining shit



but either way...get it done

Puddle Dynamics 01-18-2011 12:55 PM

Nice to see some info flowing about our cars. I have a ets top mount I'm waiting for I guess I should get the pump for good measure. I'm in Irving, TX anyone wanna datalog my car after the top mount?

bertrand_CX_7 01-18-2011 01:03 PM

Thanks both for your answer.


Yeah, the lifetime warranty is very appealing on the CP-e pump. I think I'll spread the expense-saving. I'll go upgraded CP-e HPFP for the speed3 and upgrade the internal on the CX-7 since I don't plan to mess up to much with the 7.

Think I just find the trade of.

Thanks bot for the inputs.

clowncar 01-18-2011 01:16 PM

I think I am going to get the KMD internals. My dad is a professional mechanic for Marathon Oil I think he can handle it! lol

mghtymouse380 01-18-2011 01:18 PM

Well the Cp-e HPFP is awesome. I installed one on my gen 2 about 15 days ago and everything runs smooth. I dont have anything to datalog right now but am looking into a few different things.

Nataphen I think since we know we should use a data logger there needs to be information on what is out there that we can use. I myself and thinking of ordering a PLX kiwi wifi obdII reader and hook it up to my ipod touch. But have also though about going with the DASHDAQ as well but it still doesnt have all the PIDs. So it is a bit expensive for my taste on that. That is just my .02.

DONOTBUGME 01-18-2011 01:23 PM

the problem is there are no good dataloggers for the gen 2. You can get a dashdaq for the same price price as the AP. Does anyone know if a dashhawk will show fuel pressure, fuel trims? Does the dashhawk competely not work with the gen 2 or does it work choppy or not show all the data like knock and afrs?

bertrand_CX_7 01-18-2011 01:39 PM

I hooked up the DH to my Gen2 speed 3 couple days ago and it's still there.

I don't know which parameter reads the Knock retard and fuel trims. Anyone interesting of knowing what the DH can/can't read. Pls PM me with a list of params to look at so I can double check and confirm

Thanks

mghtymouse380 01-18-2011 01:43 PM

The DH still is able to read some things on our car but it is really laggy. I used my friends DH to monitor FP when we installed the cp-e HPFP to make sure everthing was good. It was really choppy. It doesnt read AFR or KR. But it will give you a few things.

Speed3eak 01-18-2011 01:51 PM

So I've been WOT a few times in this colder weather - probably really bad for the engine, can't go back and un-WOT now though.

I really want the new firmware to come out so I can datalog.

I thought the neutered stg 1 maps still briefly reached 18psi? Only for around 500-750 rpms though IIRC.

At any rate, looks like I'm gonna be sticking to 16 psi and only fiddle with the timing and WGDC for a while.

clowncar 01-18-2011 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speed3eak (Post 693967)
So I've been WOT a few times in this colder weather - probably really bad for the engine, can't go back and un-WOT now though.

I really want the new firmware to come out so I can datalog.

I thought the neutered stg 1 maps still briefly reached 18psi? Only for around 500-750 rpms though IIRC.

At any rate, looks like I'm gonna be sticking to 16 psi and only fiddle with the timing and WGDC for a while.

I my peak boost is 18psi and it tapers down to 16.5 by redline

jrotaryb 01-18-2011 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nataphen (Post 693821)
As I said, I would get a datalogger first. Bolt-ons should be fine in most cases, as long as you do not raise your boost levels. Datalogger first IMO, and I stick to that.

Hypertech doesn't have a 2010+ unit yet. I don't know what it will be like if and when it comes out.

Well, doesn't the intake/racepipe combo raise boost? I thought corksport said boost went to about 18psi.

Spoofmastafly 01-18-2011 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebnash (Post 693840)
I understand that is what you have experienced with your set-up, but I have only a CS SRI/TIP and Racepipe and I logged last week seeing pressures drop below 1200. There is no absolute formula to run completely safe on these engines. Everyone sees something different. Also, with my mods I saw some boost spikes to 18 psi in 3rd gear so you don't need major bolt-ons to cause issues. I would think you should definitely see boost spikes installing a downpipe whether it is catted or not.

I think the most important item here is that you should have some data monitoring system if you are going to mod. When I installed the ETS top mount, I had all kinds of surging under boost. I removed it and it went away, but my fuel rail pressures are still not stable with the intake and RP.


I get what your saying, I was just simply throwing my input out there.. I just got back doing three logs myself.. Having only spiked to 16psi once, and fuel pressure to never drop below 1600psi when in 14-15psi boost range.. Even hit 1700psi once or twice..

Every car is different.. a ETS top mount is similar to running a catless DP.. it opens up the airway alot on these cars.. I wouldn't suggest running one of them without an upgraded hpfp.

But I completely agree everyone should but a monitoring system before anything else.. DashDAQ will have complete PID's sooner or later.. I love mine.

DONOTBUGME 01-18-2011 04:49 PM

how is running an intercooler like running a downpipe? They are on two oppiste sides of the combustion process.

wolly6973 01-18-2011 07:51 PM

He meant as far as removing flow restrictions...
But according to Christian, the stock tmic flows just fine. You only need to upgrade at higher boost, since there is more air to cool, which is where the larger core will help.

Amazon 01-18-2011 07:59 PM

Nagga is right

Just because you're not tuned or fully bolted it doesn't mean you're exempt either

I've seen my fuel pressure drop down to 1100 psi with just an intake/tip and test pipe as power mods. So heads up, you might not even have to have a tune to feel the forewarning tremors of failure. I can also say that the car feels no faster with a test pipe than it did with just an intake. Actually, it feels slower, and after logging a couple wot runs, I think my suspicions are correct.

Mchart 01-18-2011 08:20 PM

My FRP drops to 1100 at WOT around near where max torque is on the band. I have nothing but a tune.

So i'd be careful even putting an intake on this car considering that people like me are maxing the pump out with nothing but a tune.

That said, I don't see this being an issue in terms of hurting the engine. If the ECM realizes it can't supply the fuel it needs it will drop boost to save the engine. If things get really bad it will outright cut load. So really, the worst that is happening is that you are loosing power.

Really sucks that Mazda didn't put a more robust pump in though. In really cold temps I could see the FRP dropping even on the stock tune.

bertrand_CX_7 01-18-2011 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mghtymouse380 (Post 693955)
The DH still is able to read some things on our car but it is really laggy. I used my friends DH to monitor FP when we installed the cp-e HPFP to make sure everthing was good. It was really choppy. It doesnt read AFR or KR. But it will give you a few things.

Hey men how where you able to log the FP with the DH. In mine it's showing N/A. Didn't bother logging parameter that doesn't display.

Please explain..

Sofar DH is reading only Boost, ltft, stft.

Thanks

mghtymouse380 01-18-2011 09:09 PM

I didnt log at all just hooked it up and he monitored while I drove around. He had it set up already we just plugged it in on my car. Can someone else chime in here to help??

DONOTBUGME 01-18-2011 09:14 PM

Yes all I need to know for the time being is fuel trims, boost and fp

AtTheDriveIn 01-18-2011 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mghtymouse380 (Post 694607)
I didnt log at all just hooked it up and he monitored while I drove around. He had it set up already we just plugged it in on my car. Can someone else chime in here to help??

For the most part it monitored all the basic stuff. The big things it didn't monitor was Actual AFR, KR, MAF Voltage, MAF g/s, Boost Temps. But like he mentioned, it ran choppy as shit. Not only that but when we switched it between his MS3 and my MS6 it freaked out. It showed many PIDS were missing most likely from the gen 2.


Quote:

Originally Posted by bertrand_CX_7 (Post 694586)
Hey men how where you able to log the FP with the DH. In mine it's showing N/A. Didn't bother logging parameter that doesn't display.

Are you monitoring the correct fuel pressure parameter? There's like two of three of them. It should be the one that says Fuel Pressure Direct Injection.

mghtymouse380 01-18-2011 09:45 PM

Thanks danny for chiming in on that. He was the one that helped me with my cpe hpfp. Hope that helps.


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