register gallery
 

Go Back   Mazdaspeed Forums >
Mazdaspeed Forums Knowledge Base
>
Mazdaspeed Forums Knowledge Base (Gen1 - Gen 2)
> MSF KB - Mazdaspeed 3/6 - Fuel


Welcome to Mazdaspeed Forums .

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

*When you join MSF as a registered user, there will be No Ads.

*Registered Members get access to the Off Topic Area of the Forum

*Registered Members have an opportunity to upgrade their accounts to VIP, which brings a host of goddies for supporting MSF such as Raffles, Additional Forum Access, More PM Storage, The ability to upload more Images and many other enhancements.

*Registered members also get access to the live chat box!
 
 
Bookmark and Share LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 Old 10-11-2009, 04:52 PM   #41
Captain
 
djuosnteisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
Posts: 11,480   (View Stats)
iTrader: (5)
Rep Power: 15742
djuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the world
Thanks: 33,656
Thanked 30,914 Times in 7,770 Posts
Groans: 79
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Lol, just realized i up loaded a ridiculously long video, i'll leave it, but i was basically us trying to figure out if the injector started earlier right at the shift. What was actually happening was the crank sensor and spark were moving left also, and the injector was spraying past spark. This is an aberration caused by triggering at the end of the injector event, not the beginning, and watch the vids again with a careful eye, you'll see that the injector start doesn't change much at all with respect to TDC (or missing tooth).
__________________

500awhp 440awtq uncorrected

EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning.
Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2....

30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next...

Check out the hair Salon:
www.permtuning.com
djuosnteisn is offline  
 Old 10-11-2009, 04:54 PM   #42
Fux Wit It

 
Darksun280's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Li
Posts: 9,214   (View Stats)
iTrader: (3)
Rep Power: 10
Darksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 7,795
Thanked 16,103 Times in 4,061 Posts
Groans: 175
Groaned at 498 Times in 278 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
Lol, just realized i up loaded a ridiculously long video, i'll leave it, but i was basically us trying to figure out if the injector started earlier right at the shift. What was actually happening was the crank sensor and spark were moving left also, and the injector was spraying past spark. This is an aberration caused by triggering at the end of the injector event, not the beginning, and watch the vids again with a careful eye, you'll see that the injector start doesn't change much at all with respect to TDC (or missing tooth).
Roar im gonna throw a slipper at you dumb it down more give me a theory on what happens when you command more fuel.
__________________
Carry on citizens....
Pump Gas Champ 10.9 @ 128
10.6 @ 129 E85 (IC coupler popped)
10.7 @ 133 auto 1G DSM
2013 C6 GS (Retirement vehicle)

TwitchTV: CooperSheepsTTV

Darksun280 is offline  
 Old 10-11-2009, 04:54 PM   #43
Captain
 
djuosnteisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
Posts: 11,480   (View Stats)
iTrader: (5)
Rep Power: 15742
djuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the world
Thanks: 33,656
Thanked 30,914 Times in 7,770 Posts
Groans: 79
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by Darksun280 View Post
to some up what you said am i right that when you command more fuel to meet command it sprays longer so theres a chance its overlapping injection time into the exhaust stroke?
Yes, the injector does look like it starts spraying right near TDC on teh intake stroke, so if you have mega overlap, some of that fuel could certainly flow right out.

It also looks like the injectors could possibly even spray during the combustion power stroke. At least definitely during the shift points. You can see the the injector trace goes right of the spark in a few of those vids.

It looks like the injector spray during both the intake stroke, and well into the compression stroke, and like i stated above, possibly after spark.
__________________

500awhp 440awtq uncorrected

EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning.
Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2....

30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next...

Check out the hair Salon:
www.permtuning.com
djuosnteisn is offline  
 Old 10-11-2009, 04:57 PM   #44
Fux Wit It

 
Darksun280's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Li
Posts: 9,214   (View Stats)
iTrader: (3)
Rep Power: 10
Darksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 7,795
Thanked 16,103 Times in 4,061 Posts
Groans: 175
Groaned at 498 Times in 278 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

we are fucking our selves by asking for more fuel or even stock ecu trying to met commanded requirements probably even fucking up our own mixtures. ehh......
__________________
Carry on citizens....
Pump Gas Champ 10.9 @ 128
10.6 @ 129 E85 (IC coupler popped)
10.7 @ 133 auto 1G DSM
2013 C6 GS (Retirement vehicle)

TwitchTV: CooperSheepsTTV

Darksun280 is offline  
 Old 10-11-2009, 05:03 PM   #45
 
Deadman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 868   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
Deadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the world
Thanks: 53
Thanked 200 Times in 116 Posts
Groans: 1
Groaned at 31 Times in 16 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

wasn't there a thread about people pulling fuel and actually gaining power? Somewhere...

Btw nice job DJ, only helping this platform get on it's way !
__________________
need more powaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Deadman is offline  
 Old 10-11-2009, 05:05 PM   #46
Captain
 
djuosnteisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
Posts: 11,480   (View Stats)
iTrader: (5)
Rep Power: 15742
djuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the world
Thanks: 33,656
Thanked 30,914 Times in 7,770 Posts
Groans: 79
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

I do want to throw this out there...

We pretty much only saw the injectors stay open past the spark event during a shift.


during a shift...


Could spraying fuel after the spark during a shift contribute to a fouled injector or blown motor?

Originally Posted by Deadman View Post
wasn't there a thread about people pulling fuel and actually gaining power? Somewhere...

Btw nice job DJ, only helping this platform get on it's way !
Thanks, and pulling fuel will almost always result in more power , lol.

Here's another vid for shits and giggles:
__________________

500awhp 440awtq uncorrected

EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning.
Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2....

30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next...

Check out the hair Salon:
www.permtuning.com
djuosnteisn is offline  
 Old 10-11-2009, 05:17 PM   #47
Fux Wit It

 
Darksun280's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Li
Posts: 9,214   (View Stats)
iTrader: (3)
Rep Power: 10
Darksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 7,795
Thanked 16,103 Times in 4,061 Posts
Groans: 175
Groaned at 498 Times in 278 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

shits starting to get deep in here so im gonna fall back till my man Lex naws on this info for a little.
__________________
Carry on citizens....
Pump Gas Champ 10.9 @ 128
10.6 @ 129 E85 (IC coupler popped)
10.7 @ 133 auto 1G DSM
2013 C6 GS (Retirement vehicle)

TwitchTV: CooperSheepsTTV

Darksun280 is offline  
 Old 10-11-2009, 05:18 PM   #48
 
SgtP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oceanside, CA
Posts: 2,130   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 2836
SgtP is the leader of the worldSgtP is the leader of the worldSgtP is the leader of the worldSgtP is the leader of the worldSgtP is the leader of the worldSgtP is the leader of the worldSgtP is the leader of the worldSgtP is the leader of the worldSgtP is the leader of the worldSgtP is the leader of the worldSgtP is the leader of the world
Thanks: 676
Thanked 5,355 Times in 343 Posts
Groans: 106
Groaned at 30 Times in 22 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

deep is right. im too scared to post in here!
__________________
13.2@111
CP-E Nano, CP-E Inlet, CP-E catless DP, CP-E Standback V2, CPE FullThrottle/No Cut Flash, CP-E FMIC, CP-E CDFP, CP-E HKS BPV, TRZ Poly MM, E4P Shifter, Denso Iridium ITV22 plugs, CP-E Towplate, PG V3 Manifold w/EGT bung, Saikou Michi OCC, EGR delete, BSD w/oil baffle, BC Coilovers w/front camber adjustment, SPC rear arms, 17x8 Anthracite O.Z. Alleggerita's wrapped in Nitto NT01's

Originally Posted by rodrigo View Post
damn josh u are pretty.... i swear if tina hadnt taken you id so rail u
Certified Personal Trainer/Nutritional Consultant - I can cure Skinny, Fat and Weak

http://jpnutritionandfitness.blogspot.com/

Sponsored By: CP-E
SgtP is offline  
 Old 10-11-2009, 05:34 PM   #49
Must Have Teh 10's!

 
superskaterxes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 10,442   (View Stats)
iTrader: (9)
Rep Power: 10760
superskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the world
Thanks: 6,334
Thanked 21,009 Times in 5,263 Posts
Groans: 101
Groaned at 138 Times in 95 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by Darksun280 View Post
shits starting to get deep in here so im gonna fall back till my man Lex naws on this info for a little.

c'mon lex!!!!

OM NOM NOM
__________________
2006 Mazdaspeed 6 GT Black Mica #4126
KILLAH Built/SPEED PERF6RMANC3 (SP) 10.6:1 Pistons ~ SP 11mm H11 Head Studs ~ K1 rods ~ SP CNC Head Work ~ Crower 65lb Valve Springs ~ Fully Keyed/Pinned Motor ~ GTX35R w/Tial .82AR Hotside ~ JMF IM w/1000cc PI Injectors ~ SP 75mm TB ~ SP In-Tank FP w/Dual DW300's ~ AEM FPR ~ SP Custom PI Fuel kit ~ CPE 4" MAF ~ CPE SAFEseals ~ TR1035 FMIC ~ CPE Atmosphere DP/Ex Manifold/Oil/Water Lines ~ Tial MV-R EWG VTA'd ~ Denso ITV-24's ~ CPE Dual CBE ~ CPE BT TIP ~ CPE RMM ~ JBR TMM ~ JBR PMM ~ TTFMM ~ CPE RDM ~ Sonic Tuning CO's ~ LED Tails ~ Sonic Tuning HID's ~ Whiteline RSB ~ ACT 6 Puck w/unicorn dust
First K04 in the 12's
First MS6 in the 11's
Certified RichTune E-Tuner
superskaterxes is offline  
 Old 10-11-2009, 07:07 PM   #50
Speeeeeed

 
06Speed6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Corpus Christi, Tx
Posts: 6,526   (View Stats)
iTrader: (24)
Rep Power: 7472
06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 6,189
Thanked 14,555 Times in 2,803 Posts
Groans: 41
Groaned at 23 Times in 19 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

You can spray after the spark event, but at diminished returns as far as power goes. It certainly doesnt hurt anything. It should also be said that the air fuel mix doesnt combust instantly when the spark goes off, the flame front takes time to cross the chamber.

One thing I would like to see, if its not too much to ask, is a log at your currect psi and a log at say 5psi. If the injector is injecting for less time at the lower psi then we can probably rule out a change in injector flow. Ide like to know if injection duration is changing due to rpm or due to total intake cfm. If the logs show about the same injection duration then we know injection volume is at play and ide like to rule that out for certain because believe it is not variable but I also have no proof.

Lex: I had heard that our injectors were 100v from someone who logged the voltage, 60 to 70v is more the industry standard though. Also, from the designs I have seen, I have a very very hard time believing that our injectors have no closing cycle, im going to need a injector signal graph for me to believe that.
__________________
2006 Mazdaspeed 6

P&P, flow benched, head with welded EGR and +1mm inconel exhaust valves (260/200cfm @ .500"), Web Cams, Custom crankcase breather with integrated air/oil seperator, Custom 3/4" ID pan vac system, Blow through maf, Port matched IM, CNC AN-12 ORB block oil adapter, CP-e 88mm Stage 2 pistons, Pauter 22.5mm rods, ARP main, head, and crank studs, CP-e injector seals, Injector stud kit, Cometec 88mm 5 layer HG, Deatschworks flow tested matched injectors, DCR VVT, PTP 2250psi RV, Corksport front sway, Whiteline rear sway, AWR front/rear sway links, TT FMM, AWR 70d DMM, JBR 80D PMM, SU RMM, TT FRDM, CP-e RRDM, Autotech CDFP, DW65c ITFP, Custom L/A IC with a dual pass 20x25x1.5 heat exchanger, Dual Cobra I/C pumps, 2.5" ID 700hp I/A intercooler, Custom DP, Corksport catback, Corksport exhaust hangers, chrome plated genpu valve cover, chrome plated timing cover, Spin on oil filter, Fluidyne dual pass AN-12 oil cooler, Hayden oil cooler fan controller, Dual 4.7" SPAL oil cooler fans, Canton Racing 22-480 oil tstat, Custom BMRS AN-12 oil lines, SPC ball joints, 55w/35w headlights and independently switched fogs on custom waterproof harnesses, PIAA Super Plasma driving and interior lights, rear diff cutout switch, 3M clear front cover, Volk 17x7.5 wheels, Custom tcase bearing cap upgrade, GS EBC 3 port, Redline SS hood lift, Versatune, Defi gauges, Innovate MTX-L WB gauge, triple center gauge pod, Block8head dual vent pod, Redline shift boot & ebrake cover & arm rest cover, Mazdaspeed CF ebrake handle, SBC Full Face Feramic Clutch Disc, Dashawk, ACL rod bearings, King main bearings, Cosworth BSD, Custom windage tray, Holset HX35w, Creative Performance T3 EWG manifold, HKS VTA BOV, A1 H11 head studs, Hylomar HG sealant, SSP EGR delete plate, JBR EGR IM plug, JGS 40mm Race EWG


06Speed6 is offline  
 Old 10-11-2009, 07:21 PM   #51
Captain
 
djuosnteisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
Posts: 11,480   (View Stats)
iTrader: (5)
Rep Power: 15742
djuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the world
Thanks: 33,656
Thanked 30,914 Times in 7,770 Posts
Groans: 79
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

I'd like to see a lower psi log too, and also request a ridiculous afr like 8 to 1 or something at my current psi. I'll put together two maps tonight and try to get those logs sometime this coming week.

Low psi log is going to be very very very difficult for me to do with the fact that i'm already creeping to 22 ish at 75 degrees outside temps. As it gets cooler, my creep gets worse (really wish i had my fucking manifold). So maybe ridiculously low afr's would suffice for your needs 06speed6? I'll try both, but may only be able to deliver one.
__________________

500awhp 440awtq uncorrected

EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning.
Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2....

30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next...

Check out the hair Salon:
www.permtuning.com
djuosnteisn is offline  
 Old 10-11-2009, 07:30 PM   #52
Axle Breaker
 
jmhinkle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
Posts: 4,639   (View Stats)
iTrader: (30)
Rep Power: 3984
jmhinkle is the leader of the worldjmhinkle is the leader of the worldjmhinkle is the leader of the worldjmhinkle is the leader of the worldjmhinkle is the leader of the worldjmhinkle is the leader of the worldjmhinkle is the leader of the worldjmhinkle is the leader of the worldjmhinkle is the leader of the worldjmhinkle is the leader of the worldjmhinkle is the leader of the world
Thanks: 8,595
Thanked 7,621 Times in 2,782 Posts
Groans: 162
Groaned at 28 Times in 16 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

You make me horny when you get all smart like this.
__________________
jmhinkle is offline  
 Old 10-11-2009, 07:45 PM   #53
Captain
 
djuosnteisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
Posts: 11,480   (View Stats)
iTrader: (5)
Rep Power: 15742
djuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the world
Thanks: 33,656
Thanked 30,914 Times in 7,770 Posts
Groans: 79
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Also 06speed6, i think we could also show what your asking by simply boosting to lower psi, like part throttle boost. If the duration is less, then we know flow isn't change when the injector is open. i can definitely do some part throttle boost logs!
__________________

500awhp 440awtq uncorrected

EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning.
Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2....

30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next...

Check out the hair Salon:
www.permtuning.com
djuosnteisn is offline  
 Old 10-11-2009, 08:06 PM   #54
Speeeeeed

 
06Speed6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Corpus Christi, Tx
Posts: 6,526   (View Stats)
iTrader: (24)
Rep Power: 7472
06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 6,189
Thanked 14,555 Times in 2,803 Posts
Groans: 41
Groaned at 23 Times in 19 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

I mainly wanna see full throttle, near redline, max load logs that show some difference between different fueling requirements.

Changing the AFR could do that I suppose.

I wanna know if the ECU is changing injection duration in relation to crankshaft degrees due to rpm or fueling requirements. I noticed that your injection duration appears to extend after hp and intake charge CFM should be dropping off on a usual dyno log. That made me wonder if it is doing that due to RPM and the injector driver has some way of increasing injector flow with higher voltages etc.

If it is infact extending the injection duration due to RPM then it would seem that we have a theoretical injector redline on our hands.

It could also be that as RPM inceases the injection window decreases and the ECU then extends that window to maintain overall injector duration as RPM increases.

Just to clarify what im getting at...

As RPM increases, if the injection time in crankshaft degrees remains a constant, total injection time in time decreases.

To make up for that lost injection time the ECU could be extending the window in crankshaft degeees in an attempt to keep the total injection time a constant between idle and 6000rpm.

If thats the case, then we have a injector redline and not a hp redline.

BUT if that was the case, then the ECU must also have a way to vary the amount of fuel injected independent of the injection time in time or crankshaft degrees.
__________________
2006 Mazdaspeed 6

P&P, flow benched, head with welded EGR and +1mm inconel exhaust valves (260/200cfm @ .500"), Web Cams, Custom crankcase breather with integrated air/oil seperator, Custom 3/4" ID pan vac system, Blow through maf, Port matched IM, CNC AN-12 ORB block oil adapter, CP-e 88mm Stage 2 pistons, Pauter 22.5mm rods, ARP main, head, and crank studs, CP-e injector seals, Injector stud kit, Cometec 88mm 5 layer HG, Deatschworks flow tested matched injectors, DCR VVT, PTP 2250psi RV, Corksport front sway, Whiteline rear sway, AWR front/rear sway links, TT FMM, AWR 70d DMM, JBR 80D PMM, SU RMM, TT FRDM, CP-e RRDM, Autotech CDFP, DW65c ITFP, Custom L/A IC with a dual pass 20x25x1.5 heat exchanger, Dual Cobra I/C pumps, 2.5" ID 700hp I/A intercooler, Custom DP, Corksport catback, Corksport exhaust hangers, chrome plated genpu valve cover, chrome plated timing cover, Spin on oil filter, Fluidyne dual pass AN-12 oil cooler, Hayden oil cooler fan controller, Dual 4.7" SPAL oil cooler fans, Canton Racing 22-480 oil tstat, Custom BMRS AN-12 oil lines, SPC ball joints, 55w/35w headlights and independently switched fogs on custom waterproof harnesses, PIAA Super Plasma driving and interior lights, rear diff cutout switch, 3M clear front cover, Volk 17x7.5 wheels, Custom tcase bearing cap upgrade, GS EBC 3 port, Redline SS hood lift, Versatune, Defi gauges, Innovate MTX-L WB gauge, triple center gauge pod, Block8head dual vent pod, Redline shift boot & ebrake cover & arm rest cover, Mazdaspeed CF ebrake handle, SBC Full Face Feramic Clutch Disc, Dashawk, ACL rod bearings, King main bearings, Cosworth BSD, Custom windage tray, Holset HX35w, Creative Performance T3 EWG manifold, HKS VTA BOV, A1 H11 head studs, Hylomar HG sealant, SSP EGR delete plate, JBR EGR IM plug, JGS 40mm Race EWG


06Speed6 is offline  
 Old 10-11-2009, 08:33 PM   #55
Captain
 
djuosnteisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
Posts: 11,480   (View Stats)
iTrader: (5)
Rep Power: 15742
djuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the world
Thanks: 33,656
Thanked 30,914 Times in 7,770 Posts
Groans: 79
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

You need to remember that the time scale on teh scope doesn't change even though the crank signal contracts adn teh spark event moves around. So assuming that my VE is constant across redline, the injection width would not change on teh scope, cause it would have have to inject the same amount of fuel for each cycle. thus be open for the same amount of time for each cycle.

I think as rpm increases, the window does indeed close on us, and necessarily the injection event takes up more and more of crank degrees.

My gut tells me that the injection driver wouldn't be able to change the amount injected with any odd voltage trick. I just sounds a bit fantasy to me. but nonetheless needs to be proven.

One other thought, is how would the injector driver know when to increase or decrease the flow, even if it could. There are only 4 lines that go back to the ecu, so only 4 lines for control. What would tell the injector driver module when to increase for a given width. I think the amount injected directly corresponds to the length of time the injector is open.
__________________

500awhp 440awtq uncorrected

EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning.
Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2....

30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next...

Check out the hair Salon:
www.permtuning.com
djuosnteisn is offline  
 Old 10-11-2009, 09:30 PM   #56
Speeeeeed

 
06Speed6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Corpus Christi, Tx
Posts: 6,526   (View Stats)
iTrader: (24)
Rep Power: 7472
06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 6,189
Thanked 14,555 Times in 2,803 Posts
Groans: 41
Groaned at 23 Times in 19 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
One other thought, is how would the injector driver know when to increase or decrease the flow, even if it could. There are only 4 lines that go back to the ecu, so only 4 lines for control. What would tell the injector driver module when to increase for a given width. I think the amount injected directly corresponds to the length of time the injector is open.
That is where the mystery begins.

But I also think that if that were strictly the case, the expansion of the window in crank degrees would have slowed in the higher rpm ranges and would have increased speed in the lower rpm ranges where we make power.
__________________
2006 Mazdaspeed 6

P&P, flow benched, head with welded EGR and +1mm inconel exhaust valves (260/200cfm @ .500"), Web Cams, Custom crankcase breather with integrated air/oil seperator, Custom 3/4" ID pan vac system, Blow through maf, Port matched IM, CNC AN-12 ORB block oil adapter, CP-e 88mm Stage 2 pistons, Pauter 22.5mm rods, ARP main, head, and crank studs, CP-e injector seals, Injector stud kit, Cometec 88mm 5 layer HG, Deatschworks flow tested matched injectors, DCR VVT, PTP 2250psi RV, Corksport front sway, Whiteline rear sway, AWR front/rear sway links, TT FMM, AWR 70d DMM, JBR 80D PMM, SU RMM, TT FRDM, CP-e RRDM, Autotech CDFP, DW65c ITFP, Custom L/A IC with a dual pass 20x25x1.5 heat exchanger, Dual Cobra I/C pumps, 2.5" ID 700hp I/A intercooler, Custom DP, Corksport catback, Corksport exhaust hangers, chrome plated genpu valve cover, chrome plated timing cover, Spin on oil filter, Fluidyne dual pass AN-12 oil cooler, Hayden oil cooler fan controller, Dual 4.7" SPAL oil cooler fans, Canton Racing 22-480 oil tstat, Custom BMRS AN-12 oil lines, SPC ball joints, 55w/35w headlights and independently switched fogs on custom waterproof harnesses, PIAA Super Plasma driving and interior lights, rear diff cutout switch, 3M clear front cover, Volk 17x7.5 wheels, Custom tcase bearing cap upgrade, GS EBC 3 port, Redline SS hood lift, Versatune, Defi gauges, Innovate MTX-L WB gauge, triple center gauge pod, Block8head dual vent pod, Redline shift boot & ebrake cover & arm rest cover, Mazdaspeed CF ebrake handle, SBC Full Face Feramic Clutch Disc, Dashawk, ACL rod bearings, King main bearings, Cosworth BSD, Custom windage tray, Holset HX35w, Creative Performance T3 EWG manifold, HKS VTA BOV, A1 H11 head studs, Hylomar HG sealant, SSP EGR delete plate, JBR EGR IM plug, JGS 40mm Race EWG


06Speed6 is offline  
 Old 10-11-2009, 09:41 PM   #57
Captain
 
djuosnteisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
Posts: 11,480   (View Stats)
iTrader: (5)
Rep Power: 15742
djuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the world
Thanks: 33,656
Thanked 30,914 Times in 7,770 Posts
Groans: 79
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 View Post
That is where the mystery begins.

But I also think that if that were strictly the case, the expansion of the window in crank degrees would have slowed in the higher rpm ranges and would have increased speed in the lower rpm ranges where we make power.
It does show by teh fact that the injector width stays the same, while the crank signal and spark event shrink around it.

You can think of it the other way around, if the crank signal stayed the same, and spark event stayed the same, teh injector signal would grow!

I'll prove this by triggering off the spark event instead of the injector signal tomorrow!

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
I'll prove this by triggering off the spark event instead of the injector signal tomorrow!
Ugh, nevermind, i just realized i can't prove it this way. It would look the exact same way, cause the time scale is fixed. But everything i just said still stands IMO.

Basically, to inject X amount of fuel, the injector would have to be open for Y miliseconds, which with an x-axis on the scope of 5ms per division, would take up Z divisions.

So as long as X amount of fuel was requested per cycle (as in a perfectly flat torque curve & flat VE), the injector would always stay open for Yms per cycle, and appear as a fixed width taking up Z divisions on the scope.

The crank & spark however would become faster and faster with increased rpms, and thus appear to squeeze in on the scope screen.

Okay, i'm off to bed. Tomorrow i'll log some part throttle mid boost stuff. After that i'll try ridiculously low afr's and then i'll try low boost (but still not sure if it will work with my IWG).
__________________

500awhp 440awtq uncorrected

EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning.
Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2....

30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next...

Check out the hair Salon:
www.permtuning.com
djuosnteisn is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 12:15 AM   #58
Lex
Engineered Tuning

 
Lex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 12,650   (View Stats)
iTrader: (6)
Rep Power: 12010
Lex is the leader of the worldLex is the leader of the worldLex is the leader of the worldLex is the leader of the worldLex is the leader of the worldLex is the leader of the worldLex is the leader of the worldLex is the leader of the worldLex is the leader of the worldLex is the leader of the worldLex is the leader of the world
Thanks: 6,485
Thanked 23,355 Times in 6,956 Posts
Groans: 13
Groaned at 44 Times in 38 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Just got back from family dinner (thanksgiving is today in Canada) so I will have to chew on this a little bit more tomorrow. Wanted to thank Dustin for the work put in though!
Lex is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 12:39 AM   #59
Banned
 
glocK23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Inland Empire
Posts: 1,753   (View Stats)
iTrader: (4)
Rep Power: 0
glocK23 is the leader of the worldglocK23 is the leader of the worldglocK23 is the leader of the worldglocK23 is the leader of the worldglocK23 is the leader of the worldglocK23 is the leader of the worldglocK23 is the leader of the worldglocK23 is the leader of the worldglocK23 is the leader of the worldglocK23 is the leader of the worldglocK23 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 937
Thanked 688 Times in 390 Posts
Groans: 701
Groaned at 655 Times in 620 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

I'll just observe.
glocK23 is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 06:56 AM   #60
Must Have Teh 10's!

 
superskaterxes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 10,442   (View Stats)
iTrader: (9)
Rep Power: 10760
superskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the world
Thanks: 6,334
Thanked 21,009 Times in 5,263 Posts
Groans: 101
Groaned at 138 Times in 95 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

so wait if we are injecting fuel from intake to compression whats the diff between DI and PI? this doesent make sense lol
__________________
2006 Mazdaspeed 6 GT Black Mica #4126
KILLAH Built/SPEED PERF6RMANC3 (SP) 10.6:1 Pistons ~ SP 11mm H11 Head Studs ~ K1 rods ~ SP CNC Head Work ~ Crower 65lb Valve Springs ~ Fully Keyed/Pinned Motor ~ GTX35R w/Tial .82AR Hotside ~ JMF IM w/1000cc PI Injectors ~ SP 75mm TB ~ SP In-Tank FP w/Dual DW300's ~ AEM FPR ~ SP Custom PI Fuel kit ~ CPE 4" MAF ~ CPE SAFEseals ~ TR1035 FMIC ~ CPE Atmosphere DP/Ex Manifold/Oil/Water Lines ~ Tial MV-R EWG VTA'd ~ Denso ITV-24's ~ CPE Dual CBE ~ CPE BT TIP ~ CPE RMM ~ JBR TMM ~ JBR PMM ~ TTFMM ~ CPE RDM ~ Sonic Tuning CO's ~ LED Tails ~ Sonic Tuning HID's ~ Whiteline RSB ~ ACT 6 Puck w/unicorn dust
First K04 in the 12's
First MS6 in the 11's
Certified RichTune E-Tuner
superskaterxes is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 07:16 AM   #61
Fux Wit It

 
Darksun280's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Li
Posts: 9,214   (View Stats)
iTrader: (3)
Rep Power: 10
Darksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 7,795
Thanked 16,103 Times in 4,061 Posts
Groans: 175
Groaned at 498 Times in 278 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
so wait if we are injecting fuel from intake to compression whats the diff between DI and PI? this doesent make sense lol
*Warning for possible false information*

Amount and actual time of injection? Bare with my simple mind.. So lets say like instead of PI injecting twice per cycle a di motor will fire 4 times lets say. Needing less total amount of fuel but split between two burst to a total shorter time then a PI fire since its being injected directly into the combustion chamber. Am I COMPLETELY off on that one? Smart guys chime in.

*end false info*


Wait a minute how can a high pressure DI injector stay open during the entire intake stroke do you know how much fuel would be going into the motor? These HP injectors could flow a PI one under the table with the pressure they use.

Edit: shit my info may be from a different type of di injection cycle doubt it applies on our car.
__________________
Carry on citizens....
Pump Gas Champ 10.9 @ 128
10.6 @ 129 E85 (IC coupler popped)
10.7 @ 133 auto 1G DSM
2013 C6 GS (Retirement vehicle)

TwitchTV: CooperSheepsTTV

Darksun280 is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 07:27 AM   #62
Must Have Teh 10's!

 
superskaterxes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 10,442   (View Stats)
iTrader: (9)
Rep Power: 10760
superskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the worldsuperskaterxes is the leader of the world
Thanks: 6,334
Thanked 21,009 Times in 5,263 Posts
Groans: 101
Groaned at 138 Times in 95 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by Darksun280 View Post
*Warning for possible false information*

Amount and actual time of injection? Bare with my simple mind.. So lets say like instead of PI injecting twice per cycle a di motor will fire 4 times lets say. Needing less total amount of fuel but split between two burst to a total shorter time then a PI fire since its being injected directly into the combustion chamber. Am I COMPLETELY off on that one? Smart guys chime in.

*end false info*


Wait a minute how can a high pressure DI injector stay open during the entire intake stroke do you know how much fuel would be going into the motor? These HP injectors could flow a PI one under the table with the pressure they use.

only some DI applications spray short bursts of fuel, its called stratified fueling.

and the injector can stay open the whole time if its DC is low enough. it only flows as much as its commanded. it wouldent make sense to me from a DI theoretical standpoint to spray during the intake stroke because the point of DI is to spay right before the compression hence the need for uber pressure injectors
__________________
2006 Mazdaspeed 6 GT Black Mica #4126
KILLAH Built/SPEED PERF6RMANC3 (SP) 10.6:1 Pistons ~ SP 11mm H11 Head Studs ~ K1 rods ~ SP CNC Head Work ~ Crower 65lb Valve Springs ~ Fully Keyed/Pinned Motor ~ GTX35R w/Tial .82AR Hotside ~ JMF IM w/1000cc PI Injectors ~ SP 75mm TB ~ SP In-Tank FP w/Dual DW300's ~ AEM FPR ~ SP Custom PI Fuel kit ~ CPE 4" MAF ~ CPE SAFEseals ~ TR1035 FMIC ~ CPE Atmosphere DP/Ex Manifold/Oil/Water Lines ~ Tial MV-R EWG VTA'd ~ Denso ITV-24's ~ CPE Dual CBE ~ CPE BT TIP ~ CPE RMM ~ JBR TMM ~ JBR PMM ~ TTFMM ~ CPE RDM ~ Sonic Tuning CO's ~ LED Tails ~ Sonic Tuning HID's ~ Whiteline RSB ~ ACT 6 Puck w/unicorn dust
First K04 in the 12's
First MS6 in the 11's
Certified RichTune E-Tuner
superskaterxes is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 07:29 AM   #63
Fux Wit It

 
Darksun280's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Li
Posts: 9,214   (View Stats)
iTrader: (3)
Rep Power: 10
Darksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 7,795
Thanked 16,103 Times in 4,061 Posts
Groans: 175
Groaned at 498 Times in 278 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Yeah I'm going back to the side lines cause im trying to remember info i don't have in front of me at my work computer.
__________________
Carry on citizens....
Pump Gas Champ 10.9 @ 128
10.6 @ 129 E85 (IC coupler popped)
10.7 @ 133 auto 1G DSM
2013 C6 GS (Retirement vehicle)

TwitchTV: CooperSheepsTTV

Darksun280 is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 09:03 AM   #64
 
psychophyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 770   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
psychophyr is the leader of the worldpsychophyr is the leader of the worldpsychophyr is the leader of the worldpsychophyr is the leader of the worldpsychophyr is the leader of the worldpsychophyr is the leader of the worldpsychophyr is the leader of the worldpsychophyr is the leader of the worldpsychophyr is the leader of the worldpsychophyr is the leader of the worldpsychophyr is the leader of the world
Thanks: 2,896
Thanked 3,055 Times in 503 Posts
Groans: 6
Groaned at 5 Times in 4 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

From what you have discovered about the injectors being open from intake to compression, and HP injectors being able to flow tons of fuel because of pressure, does this now mean that the amount of fuel available isn't the problem? Or that the only option if we need more fuel is to find someone to build a bigger injector, aside from going PI of course because there is no more time to inject? Also could the injectors starting so close to TDC on the intake stroke cause the fuel to pool on the pistonhead and not fully ignite, which would throw soot out the back?

Sry for asking so many questions, trying to wrap my head around the implications of your findings.
psychophyr is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 09:22 AM   #65
 
Scatt Nasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: PHX/SV AZ
Posts: 1,204   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
Scatt Nasty is the leader of the worldScatt Nasty is the leader of the worldScatt Nasty is the leader of the worldScatt Nasty is the leader of the worldScatt Nasty is the leader of the worldScatt Nasty is the leader of the worldScatt Nasty is the leader of the worldScatt Nasty is the leader of the worldScatt Nasty is the leader of the worldScatt Nasty is the leader of the worldScatt Nasty is the leader of the world
Thanks: 772
Thanked 1,411 Times in 472 Posts
Groans: 94
Groaned at 43 Times in 33 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

so...

Why do the injectors spray twice after a shift ?

could that second spray result in pre-ignition and give us all these bent rods ??

It can't be singled out either cause there has been cases where all four rods were bent and not broken.

Im confused lol
__________________

321 HP/348TQ-- 13.940 @ 106 /3kft ASL
Scatt Nasty is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 09:36 AM   #66
Captain
 
djuosnteisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
Posts: 11,480   (View Stats)
iTrader: (5)
Rep Power: 15742
djuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the world
Thanks: 33,656
Thanked 30,914 Times in 7,770 Posts
Groans: 79
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Okay, i had a hella epiphany this morning.


First though, here are the part throttle boost vids i promised. I gotta say this was much easier with adam in the car, lol. I'm putting my life on the line here .

Part throttle pulling away from a light

2 psi ish

7 psi ish

10 psi ish

WOT


IMO, this is just as good as running a lower boost map, because like i said, the injector driver module has no logic, no sense of what my throttle is, what my rpm is. It simply opens when the ecu tells it to. And the ecu will simply inject enough fuel to meet the requested afrs.


Okay, now here's the juicy epiphany i had, and i think it helps prove the VVT stuff.
Some assumptions are needed:
- VVT table values are indeed in degrees, but that is crank degrees not cam degrees, so 16 cam degrees = 30 crank degrees. This is plausible.
- Intake valve, with 0 degree cam advance opens right at TDC.
- Exh vavle is fixed and not adjustable, lets assume it closes like 15 degrees ATDC (for arguments sake, i really have no clue at all).

So with a 0 in my VVT table, the intake valve will open right at TDC, giving you 15 degrees of overlap. With a VVT table value at 30, the intake valve will open 30 degrees ATDC, 15 degrees after the exh valve has closed.

When adam and i froze the scope at 4500 rpm and 6300 rpm, we counted 24 crank ticks and 21 crank ticks respectively. My VVT table has 30's (roughly) in the 4500 range, and 7's at or near redline. We know TDC is 20 ticks after the missing tooth, so 24 crank ticks is 24 degrees after TDC (hmmmm, that matches my VVT setting @ 4500rpm). And at redline, we counted 21 ticks (each tick is 6 degrees), so the intake valve opens 6 degrees ATDC (hmmmm, that matches my VVT setting at redlnie).


So i would like to propose that injection spray starts right when the intake valve opens, and further, that the VVT table is indeed in degrees, but it's crank degrees. And a larger VVT value = larger lobe separation angle = lower dynamic compression (cause intake valve opens and closes later) & vice versa.

.

Originally Posted by psychophyr View Post
...does this now mean that the amount of fuel available isn't the problem? Or that the only option if we need more fuel is to find someone to build a bigger injector, aside from going PI of course because there is no more time to inject? ...
I believe fueling is a problem. I'm not leading the pack with power (but i am a 90% bolted 3071 & my car ISN'T slow), and already we're seeing the injectors open almost entirely from beginning of intake stroke to spark. That's alot, and a definite limit on the amount of power we can make.
Bigger injectors or secondary fueling would seem to be the only potential solution.
Originally Posted by Scatt Nasty View Post
so...

Why do the injectors spray twice after a shift ?

could that second spray result in pre-ignition and give us all these bent rods ??
I don't think they are spray twice, I believe it has more to do with the + & - control signals that lex had posted above. There is seriously no way our injectors would spray during the exhaust stroke lol.
__________________

500awhp 440awtq uncorrected

EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning.
Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2....

30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next...

Check out the hair Salon:
www.permtuning.com
djuosnteisn is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 09:45 AM   #67
Fux Wit It

 
Darksun280's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Li
Posts: 9,214   (View Stats)
iTrader: (3)
Rep Power: 10
Darksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 7,795
Thanked 16,103 Times in 4,061 Posts
Groans: 175
Groaned at 498 Times in 278 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

I'm confused to. also could it be we are spraying so close to the compression stroke we don't really have much time to lengthen the time of injection so we so actually be starting it earlier? I think thats been mentions but that involved actual control of the ecu logic whihc no one has so this post of mine is moot....
__________________
Carry on citizens....
Pump Gas Champ 10.9 @ 128
10.6 @ 129 E85 (IC coupler popped)
10.7 @ 133 auto 1G DSM
2013 C6 GS (Retirement vehicle)

TwitchTV: CooperSheepsTTV

Darksun280 is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 09:47 AM   #68
Captain
 
djuosnteisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
Posts: 11,480   (View Stats)
iTrader: (5)
Rep Power: 15742
djuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the world
Thanks: 33,656
Thanked 30,914 Times in 7,770 Posts
Groans: 79
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

When i'm at wot, I'm apparently spraying damn near all the way from teh beginning of the intake stroke, all the way through the compression stroke and very close to teh spark firing.

Start any earlier and your spraying during the exhaust stroke.
Start any later and your spraying during the power stroke.
__________________

500awhp 440awtq uncorrected

EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning.
Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2....

30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next...

Check out the hair Salon:
www.permtuning.com
djuosnteisn is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 09:49 AM   #69
Fux Wit It

 
Darksun280's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Li
Posts: 9,214   (View Stats)
iTrader: (3)
Rep Power: 10
Darksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 7,795
Thanked 16,103 Times in 4,061 Posts
Groans: 175
Groaned at 498 Times in 278 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
When i'm at wot, I'm apparently spraying damn near all the way from teh beginning of the intake stroke, all the way through the compression stroke and very close to teh spark firing.

Start any earlier and your spraying during the exhaust stroke.
Start any later and your spraying during the power stroke.
but in that theory bigger injector that sprays more fuel during the event fixes the issue and we all know it ain't that simple. Any one know how much out stock injectors flow per minute under a given psi?
__________________
Carry on citizens....
Pump Gas Champ 10.9 @ 128
10.6 @ 129 E85 (IC coupler popped)
10.7 @ 133 auto 1G DSM
2013 C6 GS (Retirement vehicle)

TwitchTV: CooperSheepsTTV

Darksun280 is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 10:01 AM   #70
Captain
 
djuosnteisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
Posts: 11,480   (View Stats)
iTrader: (5)
Rep Power: 15742
djuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the world
Thanks: 33,656
Thanked 30,914 Times in 7,770 Posts
Groans: 79
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Why wouldn't it be that simple? Nobody's ever tried bigger injectors. It's that simple in other applications, right?
__________________

500awhp 440awtq uncorrected

EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning.
Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2....

30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next...

Check out the hair Salon:
www.permtuning.com
djuosnteisn is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 10:02 AM   #71
Fux Wit It

 
Darksun280's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Li
Posts: 9,214   (View Stats)
iTrader: (3)
Rep Power: 10
Darksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 7,795
Thanked 16,103 Times in 4,061 Posts
Groans: 175
Groaned at 498 Times in 278 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
Why wouldn't it be that simple? Nobody's ever tried bigger injectors. It's that simple in other applications, right?
whoosh tried. granted his only flowed like what 10% more fuel i think maybe alittle more.
__________________
Carry on citizens....
Pump Gas Champ 10.9 @ 128
10.6 @ 129 E85 (IC coupler popped)
10.7 @ 133 auto 1G DSM
2013 C6 GS (Retirement vehicle)

TwitchTV: CooperSheepsTTV

Darksun280 is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 10:04 AM   #72
Captain
 
djuosnteisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
Posts: 11,480   (View Stats)
iTrader: (5)
Rep Power: 15742
djuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the world
Thanks: 33,656
Thanked 30,914 Times in 7,770 Posts
Groans: 79
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

And we're still trying to catch his dyno...
__________________

500awhp 440awtq uncorrected

EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning.
Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2....

30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next...

Check out the hair Salon:
www.permtuning.com
djuosnteisn is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 10:05 AM   #73
Fux Wit It

 
Darksun280's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Li
Posts: 9,214   (View Stats)
iTrader: (3)
Rep Power: 10
Darksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 7,795
Thanked 16,103 Times in 4,061 Posts
Groans: 175
Groaned at 498 Times in 278 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
And we're still trying to catch his dyno...
It can't be that simple cause then we are getting a false reading when people are pulling fuel. When I tried a 28 psi pull my aem said 10.3 a/fs granted i had raw fuel and soot coming out the back of the car which means i was getting over lap and maybe the wideband was reading wrong? But my DH was reading similar a/fs too. also you got SU mark and P3 pulling fuel. it don't all add up.
__________________
Carry on citizens....
Pump Gas Champ 10.9 @ 128
10.6 @ 129 E85 (IC coupler popped)
10.7 @ 133 auto 1G DSM
2013 C6 GS (Retirement vehicle)

TwitchTV: CooperSheepsTTV

Darksun280 is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 10:10 AM   #74
Captain
 
djuosnteisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
Posts: 11,480   (View Stats)
iTrader: (5)
Rep Power: 15742
djuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the world
Thanks: 33,656
Thanked 30,914 Times in 7,770 Posts
Groans: 79
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

I think you may have been spraying into the power stroke, and ALOT of that fuel probably went un-burnt, but possibly still registered on the 02 sensors.


Either that, or maybe the ecu knows when the injection window is maxed out, and it closes the throttle as a protective measure. I dunno, but we have hard facts right in front of our faces.
__________________

500awhp 440awtq uncorrected

EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning.
Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2....

30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next...

Check out the hair Salon:
www.permtuning.com
djuosnteisn is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 10:13 AM   #75
 
Deadman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 868   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
Deadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the worldDeadman is the leader of the world
Thanks: 53
Thanked 200 Times in 116 Posts
Groans: 1
Groaned at 31 Times in 16 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

so dj is there any way to get larger injectors that can spray more fuel during that window? Is that essentially what your getting at? This discussion is way beyond me...
__________________
need more powaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Deadman is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 10:14 AM   #76
Captain
 
djuosnteisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
Posts: 11,480   (View Stats)
iTrader: (5)
Rep Power: 15742
djuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the world
Thanks: 33,656
Thanked 30,914 Times in 7,770 Posts
Groans: 79
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

It doesn't look good. I'll let 06speed6 answer that. And also look forward to some input from the bigger brains around here, lol. I posed alot of shit, but it certainly seems to add up.
__________________

500awhp 440awtq uncorrected

EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning.
Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2....

30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next...

Check out the hair Salon:
www.permtuning.com
djuosnteisn is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 10:18 AM   #77
Speeeeeed

 
06Speed6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Corpus Christi, Tx
Posts: 6,526   (View Stats)
iTrader: (24)
Rep Power: 7472
06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world06Speed6 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 6,189
Thanked 14,555 Times in 2,803 Posts
Groans: 41
Groaned at 23 Times in 19 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by Darksun280 View Post
*Warning for possible false information*

Amount and actual time of injection? Bare with my simple mind.. So lets say like instead of PI injecting twice per cycle a di motor will fire 4 times lets say. Needing less total amount of fuel but split between two burst to a total shorter time then a PI fire since its being injected directly into the combustion chamber. Am I COMPLETELY off on that one? Smart guys chime in.

*end false info*
The net fueling requirement is virtually the same between PI and DI, the bonus that DI has is that less excess fuel is needed to control detonation due to chamber temps because the fuel is sprayed directly into the chamber.

Originally Posted by psychophyr View Post
From what you have discovered about the injectors being open from intake to compression, and HP injectors being able to flow tons of fuel because of pressure, does this now mean that the amount of fuel available isn't the problem? Or that the only option if we need more fuel is to find someone to build a bigger injector, aside from going PI of course because there is no more time to inject? Also could the injectors starting so close to TDC on the intake stroke cause the fuel to pool on the pistonhead and not fully ignite, which would throw soot out the back?
If the injectors are staying open for that duration due to intake charge CFM then we need a bigger injector, if they are staying open for that duration due to RPM then we probably have some extra fuel.

Originally Posted by Darksun280 View Post
but in that theory bigger injector that sprays more fuel during the event fixes the issue and we all know it ain't that simple. Any one know how much out stock injectors flow per minute under a given psi?
~800cc/min @ 1000 net psi, more or less.
__________________
2006 Mazdaspeed 6

P&P, flow benched, head with welded EGR and +1mm inconel exhaust valves (260/200cfm @ .500"), Web Cams, Custom crankcase breather with integrated air/oil seperator, Custom 3/4" ID pan vac system, Blow through maf, Port matched IM, CNC AN-12 ORB block oil adapter, CP-e 88mm Stage 2 pistons, Pauter 22.5mm rods, ARP main, head, and crank studs, CP-e injector seals, Injector stud kit, Cometec 88mm 5 layer HG, Deatschworks flow tested matched injectors, DCR VVT, PTP 2250psi RV, Corksport front sway, Whiteline rear sway, AWR front/rear sway links, TT FMM, AWR 70d DMM, JBR 80D PMM, SU RMM, TT FRDM, CP-e RRDM, Autotech CDFP, DW65c ITFP, Custom L/A IC with a dual pass 20x25x1.5 heat exchanger, Dual Cobra I/C pumps, 2.5" ID 700hp I/A intercooler, Custom DP, Corksport catback, Corksport exhaust hangers, chrome plated genpu valve cover, chrome plated timing cover, Spin on oil filter, Fluidyne dual pass AN-12 oil cooler, Hayden oil cooler fan controller, Dual 4.7" SPAL oil cooler fans, Canton Racing 22-480 oil tstat, Custom BMRS AN-12 oil lines, SPC ball joints, 55w/35w headlights and independently switched fogs on custom waterproof harnesses, PIAA Super Plasma driving and interior lights, rear diff cutout switch, 3M clear front cover, Volk 17x7.5 wheels, Custom tcase bearing cap upgrade, GS EBC 3 port, Redline SS hood lift, Versatune, Defi gauges, Innovate MTX-L WB gauge, triple center gauge pod, Block8head dual vent pod, Redline shift boot & ebrake cover & arm rest cover, Mazdaspeed CF ebrake handle, SBC Full Face Feramic Clutch Disc, Dashawk, ACL rod bearings, King main bearings, Cosworth BSD, Custom windage tray, Holset HX35w, Creative Performance T3 EWG manifold, HKS VTA BOV, A1 H11 head studs, Hylomar HG sealant, SSP EGR delete plate, JBR EGR IM plug, JGS 40mm Race EWG


06Speed6 is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 10:28 AM   #78
Fux Wit It

 
Darksun280's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Li
Posts: 9,214   (View Stats)
iTrader: (3)
Rep Power: 10
Darksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 7,795
Thanked 16,103 Times in 4,061 Posts
Groans: 175
Groaned at 498 Times in 278 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 View Post


~800cc/min @ 1000 net psi, more or less.
Lol yeah we don't need bigger injectors i knew it wasn't that straight forward. They got us regular joes trying to reverse engineer shit. Damn you mazda.....
__________________
Carry on citizens....
Pump Gas Champ 10.9 @ 128
10.6 @ 129 E85 (IC coupler popped)
10.7 @ 133 auto 1G DSM
2013 C6 GS (Retirement vehicle)

TwitchTV: CooperSheepsTTV

Darksun280 is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 10:31 AM   #79
Captain
 
djuosnteisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
Posts: 11,480   (View Stats)
iTrader: (5)
Rep Power: 15742
djuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the worlddjuosnteisn is the leader of the world
Thanks: 33,656
Thanked 30,914 Times in 7,770 Posts
Groans: 79
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Don't forget you only have half the time to inject compared to a PI car though. So 800cc/min = 400cc/min in DISI.
__________________

500awhp 440awtq uncorrected

EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning.
Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2....

30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next...

Check out the hair Salon:
www.permtuning.com
djuosnteisn is offline  
 Old 10-12-2009, 10:42 AM   #80
Fux Wit It

 
Darksun280's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Li
Posts: 9,214   (View Stats)
iTrader: (3)
Rep Power: 10
Darksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the worldDarksun280 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 7,795
Thanked 16,103 Times in 4,061 Posts
Groans: 175
Groaned at 498 Times in 278 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
Don't forget you only have half the time to inject compared to a PI car though. So 800cc/min = 400cc/min in DISI.
but the higher pressure gets more in to the chamber in a shorter time if the volume is there behind it so even if it can't make it to 800 cc its gotta be higher then that when the situations calls for it. These fucking injectors could float an oil tanker.
__________________
Carry on citizens....
Pump Gas Champ 10.9 @ 128
10.6 @ 129 E85 (IC coupler popped)
10.7 @ 133 auto 1G DSM
2013 C6 GS (Retirement vehicle)

TwitchTV: CooperSheepsTTV

Darksun280 is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Have you measured when the injectors... djuosnteisn MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection 241 05-15-2016 01:31 PM
New Injectors 06Speed6 MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection 50 02-25-2014 04:08 PM
Measured Exhaust Manifold Pressure Ziggo MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Turbo Induction 30 06-19-2012 11:40 AM
Anyone take out their injectors? AFcadet MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection 14 03-22-2012 01:29 PM
Review: 2010 Ford Taurus SHO gets measured against the original Haltech Automotive News 0 09-14-2009 10:30 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:39 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
vB.Sponsors
Template-Modifications by TMS
©Copyright 2008 ; 2018 Cymru Internet Services LLC | FYHN™ Autosports HQ
Ad Management plugin by RedTyger
Page generated in 0.68178 seconds with 31 queries