Beans Above the Frank Build

[Snotrocket]

I must have missed that thread. If I didn't blow up myself I'd donate to this cause lol. Glad it worked out.


TappaFak

[GODspeed7]

Originally Posted by eric@edgeautosport @silvapain; it's going out today courtesy of Edge

Fuck yeah! There's my name!


Tapatalk LIKE A BOSS!

[Enki]

Originally Posted by x09MS3GT Im not tuning guru like these guys are, but ive been following your post since your car blew up. Ive gone over these logs, and I'm wondering why your making peak hp before you even touch 4900 rpm in most of these logs ? Especially with such cool BATs ? On top of that, it almost looks like the same in every log, as soon as your VVT hits 0 at or around 4800, you stop making anymore power. With the exception of the few logs where it jumps around sporatically at the end of the rpm band, where you gained peak hp at almsot 6400 rpm.... Seems wierd. Maybe im just an idiot. But it does still look wierd, or im not seeing something. 20lbs so low should be getting a bit more torque no ? Your timing table matches my 95 octane mixed gas tune, and im making over 345 consistantly on 1.01 VD's.

2 reasons:
1. K04; boost falling off (as you can see in the graph) leads to torque falling off rapidly up top (no matter what you do aside from nitrous). In fact, it looks alot like every other K04 dyno; 20 pounds down low, taper up top.

2. Possible changes to VVT; it seems that he's hitting 15 deg VVT advance @ 3k, which is half of what is on the stock map. This could account for his drop in torque; people with stock pumps and an AP have seen increases in pressure up to and higher than 2 PSI down low at the same airflow rates and load levels (his 20 PSI might only be equivalent to 17-18 psi with stock VVT).

[ms3blackmica]

@silvapain;

Y NOT ENOUGH POWA ??

[btstarcher]

I always made more power when I targeted less boost and didn't taper as much toward redline. My turbo could hit 21psi up until around 4500 or so, and then would drop to around 17psi by redline; however if I stayed around 19psi it would hold more at redline. Obviously not as much torgue, but my power was up.

Your first runs had much more power; are you sure there isn't something wrong?

[Dano]

IIRC he did, in-fact, pull VVT when he was getting all the KR on Corn. if so he just needs to put it back and get the cylinder flow thru and spent fuel scavenging going again.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Dano IIRC he did, in-fact, pull VVT when he was getting all the KR on Corn. if so he just needs to put it back and get the cylinder flow thru and spent fuel scavenging going again.

I pulled VVT advance on my 93 map v145 in an attempt to reduce spoolup KR.

@Dano; where did you get your dial gauge you used to verify TDC? I am thinking about testing mine again just to ease my mind about mechanical timing.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by silvapain I pulled VVT advance on my 93 map v145 in an attempt to reduce spoolup KR. @Dano; where did you get your dial gauge you used to verify TDC? I am thinking about testing mine again just to ease my mind about mechanical timing.

man I got that thing at a garage sale for $5 10 years ago and just used it for the first time on this project.. lol.... talk about a premature purchase.

I know you prab don't want to wait but I can send it to you when I finish measuring my bearings...I can prab do that over the weekend. I can send the whole "kit" I made with VC mount. You would just need a 3/8" drive 6" extension and a 3/8 to 1/4 adapter to make it a lil longer for a plunger to go into the cylinder...you can rig up some combination I'm sure.

[silvapain]

I'll see if I can find something at Harbor Freight.

[Dano]

Oh god no. Not HF!!! Lol

Prab accurate enough for piston height. Leak testers another story.


Tappin

[x09MS3GT]

Originally Posted by Enki 2 reasons: 1. K04; boost falling off (as you can see in the graph) leads to torque falling off rapidly up top (no matter what you do aside from nitrous). In fact, it looks alot like every other K04 dyno; 20 pounds down low, taper up top. 2. Possible changes to VVT; it seems that he's hitting 15 deg VVT advance @ 3k, which is half of what is on the stock map. This could account for his drop in torque; people with stock pumps and an AP have seen increases in pressure up to and higher than 2 PSI down low at the same airflow rates and load levels (his 20 PSI might only be equivalent to 17-18 psi with stock VVT).

Valid point i see. But the real question to ask is, where is the power on 22 psi on a higher compression engine ? Man this is confusing.

[UnknownSuperhero]

Super price on Fowler 72-520-757 at ToolTopia.com

I used somthing similar when in school to check the deflection of warped rotors while still on the car.

*edit for HF goodness

http://www.harborfreight.com/clampin...tor-93051.html

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-inch-...cator-623.html

[ms3blackmica]

Originally Posted by Dano Oh god no. Not HF!!! Lol Prab accurate enough for piston height. Leak testers another story. Tappin

compression testers as well lol

ask me how i know !

[Enki]

Originally Posted by x09MS3GT Valid point i see. But the real question to ask is, where is the power on 22 psi on a higher compression engine ? Man this is confusing.

Everything else the same, higher. Ultimately, though, it depends entirely upon afr, airflow, timing...same shit as every other car. The mighty beard needs some time to dial it in a bit more and we will be able to tell for sure where it's at.

[ms3blackmica]

The worst part about tuning your own car is you get lazy lol

*Driving down the highway, perfect time to grab a log*... and you end up saying "ehh ill do it another time" lol

but i'm sure once silva gets thing dialed in again we should see good numbers for even a stock turbo..

at the end of the day, he is still winning. he now has a strong motor.

[silvapain]

EGT gauge was hooked up last night, thanks to help from @phate;. We put the thermocouple in the #2 runner as close as we could to the head. We didn't do the collector because we'd get more accurate readings closer to the combustion chamber, and all the cylinders and plugs looked like they were running evenly WRT AFR and temps.

At idle I'm around 800F, cruise around 1100F, and WOT is in the 1600F range if I remember correctly. Clint was the one watching the gauge closely while I drove, so he could provide better info.

Next step is to lean it out a bit from the current 12.06:1 and see what happens.


Tapadatass

[GODspeed7]

Originally Posted by silvapain EGT gauge was hooked up last night, thanks to help from @phate;. We put the thermocouple in the #2 runner as close as we could to the head. We didn't do the collector because we'd get more accurate readings closer to the combustion chamber, and all the cylinders and plugs looked like they were running evenly WRT AFR and temps. At idle I'm around 800F, cruise around 1100F, and WOT is in the 1600F range if I remember correctly. Clint was the one watching the gauge closely while I drove, so he could provide better info. Next step is to lean it out a bit from the current 12.06:1 and see what happens. Tapadatass

Where were you yesterday when I was arguing with this guy that swore up and down that my 11.83 was too lean with my 20psi tune? You are at 12.06 and going leaner. I read that even up to 13.0 is acceptable although risky.


Tapatalk LIKE A BOSS!

[btstarcher]

With the corn it should be fine...I don't know about just gas though...

[phate]

The only reasons to run rich are to combat detonation and reduce egt's. If both are acceptable, you'll be fine.

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by phate The only reasons to run rich are to combat detonation and reduce egt's. If both are acceptable, you'll be fine.

I had a couple cars on the dyno last week. On two of the cars I gained 4hp every .2 I leaned out the afr. lol Couldn't believe it.

[GODspeed7]

@boost_addict; read the last 10 posts and now you know why I was saying what I was saying.


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[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by atvfreek I had a couple cars on the dyno last week. On two of the cars I gained 4hp every .2 I leaned out the afr. lol Couldn't believe it.

What where the effects on IDCs though? I suspect that as long as you are in the right range for your fuel, it doesn't really affect power. Also remember leaner mixtures have a faster flame front speed so by leaning out you are effectively adding timing too.

Zigatapatalka

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by Ziggo What where the effects on IDCs though? I suspect that as long as you are in the right range for your fuel, it doesn't really affect power. Also remember leaner mixtures have a faster flame front speed so by leaning out you are effectively adding timing too. Zigatapatalka

Both cars were on meth only so IDC wasn't an issue, so I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to them.

One of the guys made 385hp corrected and 394 uncorrected in a speed6. With the d10 nozzle he was only in the low 80's for IDC.

Freekn tappin

[silvapain]

I forgot: we also did a compression check.

1 - 190
2 - 200
3 - 200
4 - 200

No idea why 1 is lower. We tested it twice and got the same value both times. It's only a 5% difference so I'm not too concerned.


Tapadatass

[phate]

Originally Posted by silvapain EGT gauge was hooked up last night, thanks to help from @phate;. We put the thermocouple in the #2 runner as close as we could to the head. We didn't do the collector because we'd get more accurate readings closer to the combustion chamber, and all the cylinders and plugs looked like they were running evenly WRT AFR and temps. At idle I'm around 800F, cruise around 1100F, and WOT is in the 1600F range if I remember correctly. Clint was the one watching the gauge closely while I drove, so he could provide better info. Next step is to lean it out a bit from the current 12.06:1 and see what happens. Tapadatass

EGT!!!









EGT's were peaking and holding arond 1600° for a multi gear pull through 6th. My suggestion was to richen it up first to see what happens. If the delta wasn't much for a half point or so richer, going a half point leaner (from original) would be a good comparison. Test from there to see what happens

[phate]

Originally Posted by atvfreek Both cars were on meth only so IDC wasn't an issue, so I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to them. One of the guys made 385hp corrected and 394 uncorrected in a speed6. With the d10 nozzle he was only in the low 80's for IDC. Freekn tappin

Kinda funny you mention this...To reference a bad source: john mentioned seeing gains from going leaner as power increased well beyond what the K04 could produce. I've only tested this on K04 cars, so it may be different as power levels increase.

But, Ziggo is totally correct saying the AFR affects the flame speed, thereby affecting the timing needed. When I did my testing, I held AFR, ran up timing to MBT. Pulled timing, changed AFR, then ran timing back to MBT (different curve). In that case (K04/E85 on my car was most extensive), there was not enough difference to matter.

[Clark954]

Originally Posted by silvapain PISTONS ARE DONE! They will be shipped out soon. Many thanks to Positive Fabrications. They will have these available for others to buy as well. Tapadatass

It's like a vagina....only sexier

[Mizzle]

Originally Posted by phate EGT's were peaking and holding arond 1600° for a multi gear pull through 6th. My suggestion was to richen it up first to see what happens. If the delta wasn't much for a half point or so richer, going a half point leaner (from original) would be a good comparison. Test from there to see what happens

So the big question is, what constitutes excessive EGT? If everything is working properly, 1250º to 1300º F. is a safe turbine inlet temperature, even for sustained running, mile after mile.

Banks on turbo diesels.

[Enki]

Diesel != gasoline.

1600 is normal/average for gas engines, and with modern materials, reliable as well.

[ms3blackmica]

Originally Posted by GODspeed7 Where were you yesterday when I was arguing with this guy that swore up and down that my 11.83 was too lean with my 20psi tune? You are at 12.06 and going leaner. I read that even up to 13.0 is acceptable although risky. Tapatalk LIKE A BOSS!

whoever this is clearly does not understand DI lol

Originally Posted by phate But, Ziggo is totally correct saying the AFR affects the flame speed, thereby affecting the timing needed. When I did my testing, I held AFR, ran up timing to MBT. Pulled timing, changed AFR, then ran timing back to MBT (different curve). In that case (K04/E85 on my car was most extensive), there was not enough difference to matter.

^^^ this.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by phate The only reasons to run rich are to combat detonation and reduce egt's. If both are acceptable, you'll be fine.

Timing will have a far more substantial effect on EGTs than AFR. If anything, adding fuel can quite possibly increase EGTs, as that added fuel will have more opportunity to burn further into the exhaust. Just like ziggo mentions below, lean AFRs will generally result in a faster flame front, and thus more of the combustion process will occur inside the combustion chamber, rather than into the exhaust stroke.

As always, there are grey areas. But i've even read extreme examples of detonation actually resulting in lower EGTs... simply because the detonation causes uncontrolled combustion, and thus far less combustion in the exhaust.

Originally Posted by Ziggo What where the effects on IDCs though? I suspect that as long as you are in the right range for your fuel, it doesn't really affect power. Also remember leaner mixtures have a faster flame front speed so by leaning out you are effectively adding timing too. Zigatapatalka

QFT.

Originally Posted by silvapain I forgot: we also did a compression check. 1 - 190 2 - 200 3 - 200 4 - 200 No idea why 1 is lower. We tested it twice and got the same value both times. It's only a 5% difference so I'm not too concerned. Tapadatass

My #3 and #4 cylinders have been 10psi low since the motor went in. I'm not sure if it's just how the rings lined up, or what. I'm not too concerned with it either, as long as they don't drop any further lol.

Those values look great btw!

[J-Liss]

I got a speed 3 stock manifold sitting in my closet, that i have no use for, you guys need/want it?

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by J-Liss I got a speed 3 stock manifold sitting in my closet, that i have no use for, you guys need/want it?

You want something for it? Shoot me a PM Josh.


Tapadatass

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by GODspeed7 @boost_addict; read the last 10 posts and now you know why I was saying what I was saying. Tapatalk LIKE A BOSS!

I'd still rather run slightly richer. It's a small safety net, in case things go wrong. You'll never feel 5-10WHP in every day driving. You're only putting your engine at more risk for a higher dyno number. Not worth it IMO. I'm not saying that no one should run lean AFRs, they have their place, but I wouldn't suggest it for people new to tuning or cars in general.

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Any Update

[Dano]

hes in the middle of a fierce legal battle with Wolverine Oil Heaters with regard to their totally false claim that;

Originally Posted by silvapain WHAT IS THE WOLVERINE ENGINE OIL HEATER? A revolutionary new kind of Engine Preheater designed with aerospace technology to heat the important areas of the auto engine beginning with its oil supply. Remember - Heat Rises."

which we all know that;

Originally Posted by silvapain Hot AIR rises, due to changes in air density with temperature due to the Ideal Gas Law.

its really a open and shut case but you know how these things go...fight the good fight Dan!

[Mizzle]

Heat does rise in oil as well.
I feel like I'm missing something... like the joke...

[Dano]

you guys need to get a life....guess I do as well....

god Dan will love this tomorrow!

[Mizzle]

Originally Posted by Enki Diesel != gasoline. 1600 is normal/average for gas engines, and with modern materials, reliable as well.

I totally missed this.

So they intentionally use lower-temp parts in a diesel turbo...?

[GODspeed7]

I think the joke is that "heat" itself doesn't rise. The heat is conducted through the engine. Only hot air rises. So when the advertisement stated their oil pan warmer heated the whole engine because "we all know heat rises" it was more or less false advertising because the heat is transferred from oil pan to block. The "heat" doesn't actually rise like they stated.


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