Beans Above the Frank Build

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by silvapain Here's my take on that: I never removed the gear from the exhaust cam, so as long as the intake cam timing is correct and the chain slack is good the exhaust cam should be timed. I know it's an assumption and not as good as a proper visual inspection, but it should serve as a good gross check. Tapadatass

I would def check the cams/slots/and chain tension just to be safe because keeping the exhaust cam sprocket loose until everything is in alignment is what allows everything to kinda fall into place. If you were lining things up with the sprocket already tight, then put the chain on, I'm not sure you'll get the proper timing. Just a thought as I'm running out of work.

good luck!

[helmetface]

#10 - drink a fucking beer

[phate]

As long as two of the three sprockets are loose during the timing procedure, everything will be fine. Having all 3 loose isn't necessary, since the loose two will allow the slack to be taken out.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 I would def check the cams/slots/and chain tension just to be safe because keeping the exhaust cam sprocket loose until everything is in alignment is what allows everything to kinda fall into place. If you were lining things up with the sprocket already tight, then put the chain on, I'm not sure you'll get the proper timing. Just a thought as I'm running out of work. good luck!

When timing the engine, the cams were locked in place with the VVT actuator and crank timing gear both loose. Tensioner pin was pulled which tautened the timing chain, then the VVT actuator was tightened down. This locked the cam gears correctly. Tightening the crank bolt down after the timing cover was put on then locked the crank gear in time.

You can have one of the three timing chain gears locked down and still mechanically time the engine properly. Just not two gears (or three ). l left the exhaust cam gear alone as there was no need to remove it (and therefore have to replace the friction washer).

EDIT: beaten to the punch by phate

[djuosnteisn]

I think mark was under the impression you didn't loosen the VVT gear. When i assemble motors, i typically don't touch the VVT, and instead loosen the exh sprocket to allow things to fall in place.

It was a good suggestion though, on the off chance you timed the motor with a droop between the cam sprockets.

I'm excited to see fresh gas in the tank. Go home now and doooo eeeet.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I think mark was under the impression you didn't loosen the VVT gear. When i assemble motors, i typically don't touch the VVT, and instead loosen the exh sprocket to allow things to fall in place. It was a good suggestion though, on the off chance you timed the motor with a droop between the cam sprockets. I'm excited to see fresh gas in the tank. Go home now and doooo eeeet.

Ahh. Yeah, I pulled my VVT actuator and sent it out to DCR for the 'upgrade'. The chain was quite taut between the cam gears after pulling the tensioner pin.

Almost time to leave work...

[superskaterxes]

dont forget to flush some of that fresh 93 though the system.

a tank of 93 wont help if you have E85 all through your lines, atleast purge it to the fuel pump area and let the car run as much as possible to flush out the rail before you make a determination.

[silvapain]

Update:

Plug #1 was wet, the other three dry. All four plugs were fouled up bad. Fuel in all cylinders. I pulled the valve cover; cam timing is good, and the timing chain is still tighter than an accountant's asshole. I did discover that I put the gasket that goes on the valve cover for the VVT solenoid backwards. D'oh!

[superskaterxes]

wet from gas or oil?

[Haltech]

Well, its nice to discover some little odd gremlins. Im excited to see you fire this fucker up with some fresh fuel. We're all waiting for this high compression beast to be the norm.

fire it up focker!

Originally Posted by superskaterxes wet from gas or oil?

Prob fuel. No way that fucker can have oil in it.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes wet from gas or oil?

I think fuel, but the smell wasn't strong and I'm not confident about my assessment.

Originally Posted by Haltech Prob fuel. No way that fucker can have oil in it.

The valve seals and guides were all replaced when the head was rebuilt, and the plug wells are all bone-dry.

One other thing I did notice: the annealing marks on the plugs go pretty far down the ground strap, almost to the plug threads. That's a sign that the plugs are too hot. How the hell the plugs can get that hot when they're completely fouled up is beyond me.

I'm going to put the plug gap back at 0.026" before I put them back in.

[djuosnteisn]

Start the car already.... the anxiety is driving me nuts.

[Haltech]

If you have the plugs drenched in fuel, the electrode will start igniting that fuel and you will end up with plug arching.

Close the gap and fire it up. You aren't using densos I hope? If so, chances are the porcelain has already cracked.

Originally Posted by silvapain I think fuel, but the smell wasn't strong and I'm not confident about my assessment. The valve seals and guides were all replaced when the head was rebuilt, and the plug wells are all bone-dry. One other thing I did notice: the annealing marks on the plugs go pretty far down the ground strap, almost to the plug threads. That's a sign that the plugs are too hot. How the hell the plugs can get that hot when they're completely fouled up is beyond me. I'm going to put the plug gap back at 0.026" before I put them back in.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Haltech If you have the plugs drenched in fuel, the electrode will start igniting that fuel and you will end up with plug arching. Close the gap and fire it up. You aren't using densos I hope? If so, chances are the porcelain has already cracked.

Stock heat range NGKs. I went with stock heat range because I plan on running E85 or E50 on this engine.

CKP is properly timed.

Still have to drain E85 and put in 93.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Start the car already.... the anxiety is driving me nuts.

Just because of that, I'm gonna have another cigarette...

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by silvapain Stock heat range NGKs. I went with stock heat range because I plan on running E85 or E50 on this engine. CKP is properly timed. Still have to drain E85 and put in 93. Just because of that, I'm gonna have another cigarette...

Ok.. Get to work ninja.. We're all waiting for this success.

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by silvapain Higher compression will give me more mass airflow for a given RPM, but the MAF curve won't change.

Same mass airflow, higher compression.



Can you post a vid of it starting and running?

[Easter Bunny]

Originally Posted by silvapain Stock heat range NGKs. I went with stock heat range because I plan on running E85 or E50 on this engine. CKP is properly timed. Still have to drain E85 and put in 93. Just because of that, I'm gonna have another cigarette...

Please don't do both at the same time.

[silvapain]

Still not starting up yet. I have to get all the E85 out of the rail itself by cranking it.

[silvapain]

Here's something interesting: Car hasn't fired up at all tonight, but I just tried starting it while lightly holding the gas pedal. Car fired up twice. As soon as I let off the gas, the car sputters and dies.

[06Speed6]

I wonder if that is because it is still running rich and opening the TB up brings the AFR closer to stoich. Did you unplug the maf?

[phate]

Did it stay running with you holding the pedal a bit? I woulda been driving it if that was the case lolol.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by phate Did it stay running with you holding the pedal a bit? I woulda been driving it if that was the case lolol.

LOL. Yes; as long as I held the pedal the engine stayed running.

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 I wonder if that is because it is still running rich and opening the TB up brings the AFR closer to stoich. Did you unplug the maf?

Yes. No change - car won't start.

[06Speed6]

Do you have a way to monitor AFR? As long as its rich let it run until it throws a code.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Do you have a way to monitor AFR? As long as its rich let it run until it throws a code.

After it fired up twice it won't start again.

disabled my WOT box to see if that was affecting startup. No change.

[06Speed6]

Damnit...

Alright so,

Cams are timed
Compression checks
CPS is installed correctly
Fuel has been swapped to 93
Fuel lines have been flushed
New plugs
Passed boost leak test.

All of the sensors are plugged in and the battery is charged?

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Damnit... Alright so, Cams are timed Compression checks CPS is installed correctly Fuel has been swapped to 93 Fuel lines have been flushed New plugs Passed boost leak test. All of the sensors are plugged in and the battery is charged?

Haven't actually done a compression check yet (don't have a tester).

Battery is brand new, but voltage is low due to all the start attempts. I have my wife's car idling and the jumper leads attached to my battery to make sure there is enough charge. I've checked all sensor plugs that I can see.

Attached is a datalog of me trying to start the car.

[jracer]

The plug on the throttle body plugged in really good ? I hear it can cause some headaches.

[silvapain]

Yes. The red plug lock is engaged.

[ms6ms6]

Check all fuses and wotbox wire

[06Speed6]

Was the VCTS delete done during or before the build?

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Was the VCTS delete done during or before the build?

It was but it wasn't. He is using a borrowed manifold that still has it installed while his is being PC'd.



I don't suppose you have tried unplugging the spill valve and starting it? You might want to try swapping the plugs if you still have your old ones, it's a long shot but hey, and you could check compression while doing it, if I had thought there would be a need I would have brought my compression tester up to you.

djuosnteisn I know you had done some stuff with recording IDC, don't suppose you did any during cold cranking?

[J-Liss]

Silvapain, you are experieceing the EXACT same thing i was going through with my mazda 3,

1. my first issue, was, the TB was not working at all, take off your intake and put car in ACC mode and see if the plate is opening and closing.

2. was i had a HUGE leak in my intake manifold, once i installed the bolts in the correct order this went away, and now it starts up perfect.

[phate]

Originally Posted by silvapain LOL. Yes; as long as I held the pedal the engine stayed running.

If it stays running while holding the pedal slightly, you may be able to alter the APP translation tables to hold the throttle open a bit at 0% APP. It would be a temporary work around, as it may [will] cause higher than normal idle. For break in, though, it would likely be fine so you can get things diagnosed and running properly.

I have a compression tester if you want me to drive up tonight.

[Tomas]

I don't think timing or fuel is the problem. The fact you have fuel inside all cylinders means you are spraying but for some reason the plugs aren't igniting the fuel. Even slightly fouled plugs have a horrible effect on this car including no starts. I learned that one the hard way after looking for short grounds over 10 hours and then finally just replacing the plugs with stock ones the car fired right up. A boost leak will make you run rich and will foul the plugs.

[J-Liss]

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by GLORIFIEDBOZO djuosnteisn I know you had done some stuff with recording IDC, don't suppose you did any during cold cranking?

Na, never cared about start up, lol.

+1 on plugs. Maybe even pull plugs and let cylinders air out a bit.

[Dano]

I am also in the replace plugs camp...years ago I put in some shitty octane booster in my car which somehow ruined my plugs....replaced them and car was back to normal.

I think there is such a thing as a perma fouled plug that will never work again and you may be there...just throw in some shitty AZ stock autolight plugs to see if they make a difference. That's what I ran until my Denso's came in.

[chimmike]

check that intake manifold for a crack! In before massive crack on intake mani from rushed torque procedure?

[silvapain]

Yeah, I've been thinking the same thing this morning. I just got back from the store with a set of Autolite XP5263's. Gonna throw those in.

Last night I blew all the fuel out of the cylinders and tried to start it up. Still didn't go.

I just checked the ground strap on the PMM - it was nice and tight, with no corrosion. Are there any other engine to chassis grounds?

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Originally Posted by silvapain I just checked the ground strap on the PMM - it was nice and tight, with no corrosion.

Of course it was, I installed that bitch. Now if had been say, MATT DAMOND, you might have had something to worry about.