The FAIL formerly known as "Dano's Drop-in Build"

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Lex I'm surprised it's not a photocopy or wax model.

Excellent ideas for next time. I'll have to order a DIY dildo making kit...


Tapadatass

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 What I can't believe is how far out from actual tdc that timing peg leaves us. And it's likely different on every motor also.

ya know I was wondering this as well...if the block tolerances are good then we should be able to make a custom timing peg to correct the issue...no?

I don't know exactly where it hits the counter balance so perhaps its at an angle and thus hard to get it exact?? I'll def be looking a this in a day or two.

[Tokay444]

In for hot wax cock moulds.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by silvapain Excellent ideas for next time. I'll have to order a DIY dildo making kit... Tapadatass

oh god no!

thanks lex!

Originally Posted by Lex Good stuff Dan - this should be a nice and documented build! Can't wait to see what you find during teardown.

I mentioned a few posts back about air escaping from #3 and coming out of the VC yet none out of the dip stick tube?? Am I looking at bent/burnt valves and guides there? I know they are both connected [CC and VC] but would think the air would come out of both fairly equally but tis not the case.

anyway when I pull the cams, IM, EM I'll retest and know for sure.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Dano ya know I was wondering this as well...if the block tolerances are good then we should be able to make a custom timing peg to correct the issue...no? I don't know exactly where it hits the counter balance so perhaps its at an angle and thus hard to get it exact?? I'll def be looking a this in a day or two.

That peg SST is supposed to hit the crank such that it turns it to #1 TDC and then stops. You're not supposed to be able to continue tightening the SST and rotate the crank further; however, that's exactly what was happening on my engine.

Personally I'd use a degree wheel to set at #1 TDC, and use the crank peg SST or a bolt just to hold the crank at the right spot. Once you've found TDC with the wheel, you can use the factory method just to see how off it would be.

As far as I know my engine is the only one where TDC was independently verified, so I don't know if its common or just due to some manufacturing issue with my crank.


Tapadatass

[Ziggo]

+1 on the degree wheel. The tolerance stack up to that peg scares me.

I am very jealous of the cock clock. My garage needs one.

Zigatapatalka

[Tokay444]

Part of me wants to think that 7 degrees is to compensate for the cam shift when you remove the cam plate.
If Dano measures 7 degrees on his, I'll have even more reason to believe it's built in.

[Dano]

not too sure how well the CCAG will fit into the engine bay but I do have two different angle gauges I can attempt to mount up as pseudo degree wheels. I'll get #1 to TDC before teardown via my dial gauge a la piston height test, and find out what is what with the peg and degree wheel.

edit: I think that 7* is the separation from Kevin Bacon.

[btstarcher]

Originally Posted by Dano not too sure how well the CCAG will fit into the engine bay but I do have two different angle gauges I can attempt to mount up as pseudo degree wheels. I'll get #1 to TDC before teardown via my dial gauge a la piston height test, and find out what is what with the peg and degree wheel. edit: I think that 7* is the separation from Kevin Bacon.

Wait I thought 6* was the separation from Kevin Bacon....

[Easter Bunny]

Originally Posted by btstarcher Wait I thought 6* was the separation from Kevin Bacon....

whoa guys we have a badass on our hands, he can get there one faster than the rest of us! LOL

[Dano]

Originally Posted by btstarcher Wait I thought 6* was the separation from Kevin Bacon....

ah ha! I caught you...that was a test for the gheys and you failed...or passed depending on how you look at it

j/k lol I knew it was somewhere around there.

[btstarcher]

Fuck yeah I'm gay for Kevin Bacon and Will Smith, who isn't?

[Dano]

so let it be written....

so let it be done....





just about to find out what's what with the timing peg and actual TDC.

[Dano]

TDC vs timing peg results.

So I setup my dial gauge again just like I did when I was looking at piston height. This is #1 at TDC.



I then backed the crank off and installed the timing peg just a little way into the block to see exactly where it was going to land. As it turns out, right on a flat spot on the counter balance.



So I bottomed out the peg by hand into the side of the block, rotated the crank up against it, which turned out like this.



Took a look at my dial gauge and this is the result.



so in the end I can't reproduce the results @silvapain had and it looks like on my motor at least, the peg is dead on.

time to pull the VC and find out where all my compression is going.

[atvfreek]

Damn, that is right on the money. I like it! Waiting patiently for your results (and my pistons and rods )

Freekn tappin

[BlueStreak]

I suppose it's kind've moot now but you could also verify the accuracy of the TDC pin with the slots in the back of the cams.

[Lex]

Can't wait to see the rods/pistons when you pull them out!

[Dano]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak I suppose it's kind've moot now but you could also verify the accuracy of the TDC pin with the slots in the back of the cams.

I can make that happen tomorrow. that cam alignment tool is a tight fit...I put it in tonight just to see how it lines up and it is very tight. the pin was not installed though.

I didn't get to remove the the timing cover and all that entails so I could remove the cams...that will be tomorrow as well as pressurizing the cylinders to confirm where the compression is going.

I guess I will build a custom SST to hold the block from the top so I can easily get to everything from the bottom.

@chimmike;
@Tomas;

what did you guys hold the block up with after you removed the PMM? I don't want to deal with moving something around underneath so I can get to the rods and easily turn the crank.

edit: WTF is up with my mentions?

[Dano]

just a thought...

looking at this pic again, the OEM balancing relief is right next to the flat spot and so if it were just a tad higher, it might completely FYCN on getting the timing just right.

I'll look again tomorrow to confirm that is in-deed a machining relief and not a casting mark. Either way it looks very close.

[Tokay444]

Great results for the timing peg.
@Celestspeed3;
That or you've bottomed out your dial. Lol.

[atvfreek]

To hold the block up when you take the pmm out, I would remove the oil pan and support the back of the block with a jackstand and a block of wood. If you run the block of wood along the back of the block, it will give you plenty if room to work and get the rods disconnected. Here is a pic of Dougs engine from the bottom. Not the best, but you can see the wood.

uploadfromtaptalk1352288670757.jpg

Freekn tappin

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by Dano I can make that happen tomorrow. that cam alignment tool is a tight fit...I put it in tonight just to see how it lines up and it is very tight. the pin was not installed though. I didn't get to remove the the timing cover and all that entails so I could remove the cams...that will be tomorrow as well as pressurizing the cylinders to confirm where the compression is going. I guess I will build a custom SST to hold the block from the top so I can easily get to everything from the bottom. @chimmike; @Tomas; what did you guys hold the block up with after you removed the PMM? I don't want to deal with moving something around underneath so I can get to the rods and easily turn the crank. edit: WTF is up with my mentions?

I had a floorjack underneath the transmission. It was a little intrusive for working under there but kept the motor up with the rmm and tmm.

[silvapain]

@Dano; do you have a cherry picker? The engine can be easily supported by the two lift eyes bolted onto the head.


Tapadatass

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 Great results for the timing peg. @Celestspeed3; That or you've bottomed out your dial. Lol.

not THAT stupid.

and I see that now we have to put a semicolon after a mention.

@Tokay444;

Originally Posted by silvapain @Dano; do you have a cherry picker? The engine can be easily supported by the two lift eyes bolted onto the head. Tapadatass

b but head will be gone

I'll see how I like the block of wood + my extra jack.

thanks for the suggestions guys.

[Lex]

Is tonight the piston and rod removal night?

[Dano]

quite possibly....work is interfering with my fun today.

Hey, lets talk about break in and break in oils. Lets start out with the oil.

I think everyone will agree an oil with high Zinc content is preferred for first startup, short duration breakin [20 miles] as well as long duration break-in [150 additional miles]. Then switch to any dino oil up to say 1K miles before going to syn.

agree, disagree, don't give two cents?

Where I believe things start to differ is with what weight oil one is going to use for each of these periods if different.

My plan was to use the 30wt Lucas Break-in oil for the first startup, 20 mile hard break in, change, and 150 mile changes. If it was still the dead of summer I would stick to that plan but silvapain made a good point about getting a new motor lubricated fast possibly being more critical than having a thicker weight oil during break in. He indicated using a 5-40 breakin oil but Lucas only has a 20-50 and 30wt available. As the days get colder using a multi grade makes more and more since.

sooooooo

I would like to get some thoughts on my below plan for oil usage.

1) Assemble the motor with Lucas assembly lube
2) Fill up with Lucas 20-50 and pour it over the cams/tappets before installing the VC
3) Run this up to 20 miles or so of Motoman's break in procedure
4) Change oil and switch to Lucas 30wt for the next 100-150 miles
5) Change again and go with some cheap multi grade dino oil up to 1200 or so miles.
6) Switch to syn

Note: if I am going to douse the cams with oil, does this negate the need for a multi grade?

Discuss

edit: of course you could get any number of zinc additives to add to any weight oil you wanted so I am not locked in to Lucas' 20-50

[phate]

Stock bearing clearances should probably get recommended stock weight oil. I don't think I would run the 20-50, but that's me.

I'm going to run the straight 30 weight Lucas, but I'm going to order an oil heater so it flows better on initial start up.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[BlueStreak]

I used Joe Gibbs 5w 30 for mine. Worked great.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dano]

oh yeah didn't think about the OEM clearances as it relates to oil weight...so 30 is the thickest I need to go not 50.

in that case I'll either stick with the 30 and warm up my oil pan or get a 5 or 10-30 and add Lucas additive.

Originally Posted by BlueStreak I used Joe Gibbs 5w 30 for mine. Worked great. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

but you are baller...I can't afford that gold!

[Chimmike]

frankly I used napa 5w30 dino for mine. The break in oil prices are WAY Too high, IMO.

you can get a lucas additive for new motor break in.

As for the cam lubrication, I spread assembly lube on the cams during reassmbly of the motor.

[TiGraySpeed6]

Not that their standards are all that high, but what does Mazda use when starting a car/engine for the first time?

I'm suspecting the same 5/30 that's in it when it hits the dealership floor for sale

[Dano]

Originally Posted by chimmike frankly I used napa 5w30 dino for mine. The break in oil prices are WAY Too high, IMO. you can get a lucas additive for new motor break in. As for the cam lubrication, I spread assembly lube on the cams during reassmbly of the motor.

not too sure about that. I show your Napa 5w30 costing 17 and the additive is 8. You can get Lucas 30 wt break in oil shipped from Jegs for 21. so for the straight 30 wt Lucas is a better option. now if only they made it in 5-30. Looks like I might get some local 5-30 and add the additive.

BTW I will be using Lucas assembly lube on everything.

[Chimmike]

I meant in regards to the Joe Gibbs or Royal Purple stuff.
I just used clevite assembly lube on everything. Thick stuff, stuck on really well.
Did a change after 100 miles, then after 500, then 1000.

[Lex]

Modern engines don't need much in terms of break-in. A high ZZP content with the OEM weight conventional oil is fine for break in. If it doesn't have high ZZP you can buy a bottle of additive for a few bucks.

As a sidenote, low friction rings such as in the Skyactiv don't need any break-in. The bores are aluminum with sprayed on steel. So no breaking in and the motors are not rebuildable since you can't machine the bores.

[phate]

Honestly, the last two MZR's I've broken in have used WalMart Super Tech 5W-30. Both run beautifully, one has thousands of miles on it, the other has ~1k miles.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by phate Honestly, the last two MZR's I've broken in have used WalMart Super Tech 5W-30. Both run beautifully, one has thousands of miles on it, the other has ~1k miles.

lol...here is an article I found and this guy used Super Tech oil and filters for the 1st two oil change cycles.

Run any good quality API rated oil...Valvoline, Shell, and Wal-Mart Super Tech are fine. For the initial run use a Super Tech filter...I'm a believer in the "Hard & Fast" break-in method. You want to make several hard runs to ~4000 rpm...you want to get to that rpm as quickly as possible then let the car coast back down to 10 mph or so (at idle, in gear) to create a good vacuum on the engine. Then do the same thing again...3-4 times should be enough. Take the car home and change the oil/filter before running it again using the same 30W...a Super Tech filter is fine for this too. Run to the 100-200 mile point or so and change the oil again...use the same 30W or a 10W-30 dino oil and a PureOne or Wix filter. Run to the 1500 mile point and switch to a good syn oil...stick with the Wix or PureOne filters from then on.

Originally Posted by Lex Modern engines don't need much in terms of break-in. A high ZZP content with the OEM weight conventional oil is fine for break in. If it doesn't have high ZZP you can buy a bottle of additive for a few bucks.

if the Plateau finish is done correctly you are right and there is very little break in required. Probably over thinking the oil part for sure.

[Tomas]

are you going to prime the engine before start up?

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by chimmike I just used clevite assembly lube on everything. Thick stuff, stuck on really well.

^^^This! Amazing stuff for the initial start up. Its thick as hell and doesn't run off like oil does.

I put that sh!t on everything.

[mrmonk7663]

Not sure of the inside of the mazda oil filter, but make sure that if it has an oil drain back valve on the stock filter that your aftermarket filter has one as well. Using a non oil drain back filter on my mustang did my engine in.

[Dano]

Well made some progress last night but didn't get the head off due to my 12mm 12pt 1/2 drive socket snapping in half trying to remove the head bolts. Will try to source an impact 12pt but they are hard to come by IIRC. It was a Craftsman so they will give me a new one either way.

So to add to fail #2 above I had a 1st fail when I pulled the injectors/rail I found this.





Some of you may remember a few k miles ago I installed the Toyota injector seals and something definitely went wrong with that #2 injector seal...god!

To me there are two points of interest.

1) obviously the seal was not doing its job.
2) besides that even the tip of the injector is covered in black gunk so why is that? Poor cylinder seal leading to poor combustion and soaking the injector with carbon?

Needless to say I'll be ordering me some SafeSeals today.