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 Old 08-09-2018, 10:00 AM   #1
 
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Default Need Help deciding on stuff

Good Day Everyone.

As you can tell I am new here. I been searching and searching for a few days and found lots of very interesting information.

All I need now is to set my mind straight and just get the engine build done.
----------------------------------------
Long story short. I got a speed6 as a project. Has engine knock in cyl.4. The previous owner said it happened after a hard corner / off ramp.
I am assuming this caused oil starvation and spun a rod bearing.
I took off the oil pan and yup... there is no bearing left on cyl.4 I see lots of metal shavings in the oil pan. Still did not find the bearing anywhere else.
The car still started and ran with the knock. (Had to drive it on and off the trailer)
The mileage on the engine is only 137.000 km. (or 85.500 miles)
----------------------------------------

Here are a couple of questions I have for you.
I have yet to dismantle the engine. Its on a stand ready to go, but this is my spare time project so it will take time to get to it.
Also so everyone is aware of the goals for this car. I want decent power. I do not want to race it but more or less have an awesome DD / Sunday car and maybe pull on some WRXs
I am maybe aiming for 300WHP. and possibly 400WHP down the road with finances availability.
The questions are for the block only. I will upgrade the turbo and get / fabricate other bolt-ons.

Q1: For my power goals, is it worth the money to go forged? Or should I return to factory spec with small internal upgrades? (bearings, BSD, oil pump, fuel pump)

Q2: Lets say the crank CANT be machined. Which other crank is the same? Any 2.3L? Or only the SPEED 3/6 and CX7? I was seeing that Ford Fusion has same bottom end?

Q3: Lets say the Rods are too far gone from machining. (I think cyl 4 rod is an oval now) Should I use OEM rods or spend the money and get some Manley Rods as an upgrade?

Q4: Piston options. I guess this will all depends on the rods situation? OEM with OEM rods. and Manley (or other) rods with "aftermarket" pistons? Just need a confirmation so I am not confused.

This is all so far.

I am open to any advice and any information in regards to this.

I will do my best to keep all my questions here and then start a build thread separately.

Thank you very much for all of your help.
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 Old 08-09-2018, 11:23 AM   #2
 
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Since you need a full tear down anyway and at least 1 rod I would just go forged. Mill the crank, bore the block, and get some oversized bearings and Manley rods and pistons (people here in Utah have been having issues with Wiseco). Then you don't have to worry about your load or boost getting a little high.
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 Old 08-09-2018, 01:46 PM   #3
 
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As its a long term project you can save up over time and go forged. You'll be glad you did.
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 Old 08-09-2018, 06:07 PM   #4
 
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Thanks for the response guys.

It seems to me that OEM rods are more expensive anyway.
But going with OEM pistons would be much cheaper, I would assume still should get forged ones.

Any insight on the crank? Can I run one from another 2.3? If so which one?
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 Old 08-09-2018, 08:53 PM   #5
 
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I'm running Manley rods/pistons. Manley's pistons are 2618 forgings.
For a mild build, 4032 forgings are probably better, but I don't think Manley offers that material, so you'll have to look at a different brand.

I don't recall which, but 1 of the ford cranks are direct bolt-in and is much cheaper than the mazda crank. The mustang crank maybe?
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Manley 88mm Pistons & H-Tuff Rods, King Bearings
Stock Head/Cams, Stock Int/Exh Manifolds
Versatuner, 3-bar MAP, ITV22's, CP-e TMIC
CS Turbo/DP/RP/HPFP/BPV/R-DiffMount
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2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015)
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1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
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 Old 08-10-2018, 06:16 AM   #6
 
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See if the crank is able to be machined and if oversized bearings exist. You need to buy bearings regardless and machine costs are much cheaper than even a Ford crank.
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 Old 08-10-2018, 09:30 AM   #7
 
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Ok so stock piston forged rods. Imho this is a great combo for a 350-400 whp motor GIVEN you open up the ring gap larger then oem spec to prevent the rings from butting and subsequently cracking a ringland.

The good. Oem performance and no need for special treatment during warmup unlike forged pistons. You can run a tight PTW clearance vs a forged alloy.

The bad. The only rod that can fit the stock piston is a carillo wich i believe is 800+ for a set....

The next step is 4032 alloy for under 500hp. Great compromise between cast and the 2618 alloy that holds more power. I would stay away from 2618 alltogether if you are running in the winter. Others have success but its a pima for proper warmup.

You aim for 300hp but in reality the differance between 300 and 400 is meth and more boost. I am assuming you are getting a bigger turbo then the k04? Even with the ko4 you can run a lot of boost lower in the rpm band and make shit loads of torque. I would plan for 400hp. Best thing i did was pick a hp and build for that with a little overhead.

On a side note i would not keep the balance shaft because they are notoriously hard to reshim to the block. If done wrong the motor will run like a battery powered vibrator wired into a wall socket.

Like the other poster said get the crank machined if it needs it... Otherwise just replace with oem. Our crank is forged and i cant remember anyone ever breaking one from power.
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 Old 08-12-2018, 10:18 PM   #8
 
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Just a small update...

Pulled the motor all the way apart...

Rod #4 is toast. Crank seems to have fused the rod bearing to it self.
Crank is on the way too the machine shop tomorrow. I can't wait to see what they say.
ALL of crank bearings are done too. All scratched to way beyond my liking. HOWEVER the crank looks mint. no scratches nor gouges. Except cylinder 4.

Are there bearing anyone recommends? Or just any bearing will do?
I been reading on the Clevette bearings. Seems like most go with those.
The machine shop dude told me he will give me his bearings through his supplier. but hes not sure who manufactures them. My friend used this guy before and swears by him and his products, however he has an old rebuilt chev 350.... the tolerances on those are not as critical. IMO.

I am yet to measure the bore. My tool is broken so I am waiting on a new one in the mail... hopefully I can get them soon.

Anything else I am missing while I am there?

Feel free to chime in
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 Old 08-13-2018, 04:13 AM   #9
 
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OEM bearings are a popular option.
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2006 MS6 GT - 158k Miles (Forged @ 157,116)
Manley 88mm Pistons & H-Tuff Rods, King Bearings
Stock Head/Cams, Stock Int/Exh Manifolds
Versatuner, 3-bar MAP, ITV22's, CP-e TMIC
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AWR TMM on stand-by
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2002 Tacoma ExtCab 2.4L 5spd 2WD - 355k mile Parts Getter
2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015)
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2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen (With several runs past 180, I'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't stolen. So, in a way, I'm thankful.)
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)
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 Old 08-15-2018, 07:32 AM   #10
 
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Another update.

The machine shop dude came back to me and said that the crank is fixable.

He wants to see the block before we proceed.

He also is supplying me with Clivette Bearings for the Mains and Con-Rods. all for just 90 bucks. Should I stick with those? Or get my own Kings bearings ?

We were talking about building it up (as my wish) and he offered me Eagle rods for a decent price.

I searched and searched. No one has bad things to say about them, but at the moment they are the cheapest H beams out there.

I was pretty set on the Manley Rods. But the price for the Eagles is pretty decent considering CAD dollar to US dollar ration ATM.

Any opinions on this?

Also, should I start my own build thread? or Paste my progress here?
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 Old 08-15-2018, 11:57 AM   #11
 
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I 'm not sure but i think you have something to get machined specific with eagles rods but don't remember what it was. just double check.
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 Old 08-15-2018, 12:35 PM   #12
 
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I would (did) go clevite & manley. Kings weren't out when I built and the manleys were better than the available eagles.
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 Old 08-15-2018, 12:47 PM   #13
 
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Even the "cheap" Manley rods are pretty good. I stepped up 1 notch to their H-Tuff rods.

Standard H-beam (500-600chp) ARP2000 bolts ($365)
H-Tuff (750chp) ARP2000 ($476)
H-Tuff+ (950chp) CA625+ bolts ($640)
Turbo-Tuff (1000+chp) ARP2000 ($790)
Turbo-Tuff+ (1000+chp) CA625+ ($990)
...ratings listed in crank/flywheel horsepower

There is also an upgraded thick wall wrist pin option, but I don't know what that does for HP rating.
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2006 MS6 GT - 158k Miles (Forged @ 157,116)
Manley 88mm Pistons & H-Tuff Rods, King Bearings
Stock Head/Cams, Stock Int/Exh Manifolds
Versatuner, 3-bar MAP, ITV22's, CP-e TMIC
CS Turbo/DP/RP/HPFP/BPV/R-DiffMount
White Widow F-DiffMount, Whiteline RSB
Russian Bushings in Back, Poly FSB Bushings, Magnaflow CBE
JBR Tru-3.5/3-port EBCS/EGR-D
Damond RMM/PMM/Stage 2 OCC/PCV Plate
AWR TMM on stand-by
Other rides:
2002 Tacoma ExtCab 2.4L 5spd 2WD - 355k mile Parts Getter
2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015)
History:
2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen (With several runs past 180, I'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't stolen. So, in a way, I'm thankful.)
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)

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 Old 08-16-2018, 01:26 PM   #14
 
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i was happy with my Manley setup. Rods and pistons weight matched pretty well right out of the box but if i would have to do it again, i would probably get the 4032 ones.
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1993 Ford Probe KLZE 143dB
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 Old Yesterday, 07:37 AM   #15
 
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Good Day everyone....

I got updates.

The block is going in on Thursday for MagnaFlux and clean and spec check and basically everything it needs. Hopefully they won't be needing to do much..
-----------

I was messing around with the head. and Thus far all the valves are sitting pretty tight. I will still re-seat them and do the whole cleaning and taking apart and clearance checking.
HOWEVER... I noticed there are some crazy scoring on the cams, caps and the head it self. The head is the least of my worries as a little wet sand and most of it went away. But the caps and the cams are quite badly hurt. Contaminated oil defiantly does terrible things to the engine.

I talked to some people and most said its not great... but its "fine" to go back in with a little bit of wet sand and polish and frequent oil changes and then another cap re-torque at around 1000 km. Basically keep an eye out on it.

Another person said to bore the journals and get custom cam bearings made. To me this is more expensive than a new head. Probably not tho. I also do not like adding things to places where it wasn't before.

I am at such loss with this car already. I do not want to put 5 k in just repairs.
STI;s in town are not like 12 thousand bucks so its hard to keep it on budget...

Anyway. Some photos for you.

All of your advise would be appreciated as always.
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 Old Yesterday, 12:03 PM   #16
 
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new cams may cost less than a bushing job and you can probably source some good used ones at a cheap price.
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@Jeff23spl

Would I not need new caps tho?
Also gotta do some journal polishing on the head?
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 Old Yesterday, 12:54 PM   #18
 
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Something to keep in mind, you'll need to check valve clearances and likely need to swap out most of the valve buckets.
According to the service manual, cam caps are unique to the head they came on. Likely because they are installed on the head at the factory and then align honed as a set to their final size. Swapping out the caps would require careful measuring to ensure the alignment is good.
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1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)
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Oh man...

The cost of all this is making regret getting this project...

I will keep you posted on my Machine Shop date... See what he says
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Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
Even the "cheap" Manley rods are pretty good. I stepped up 1 notch to their H-Tuff rods.

Standard H-beam (500-600chp) ARP2000 bolts ($365)
H-Tuff (750chp) ARP2000 ($476)
H-Tuff+ (950chp) CA625+ bolts ($640)
Turbo-Tuff (1000+chp) ARP2000 ($790)
Turbo-Tuff+ (1000+chp) CA625+ ($990)
...ratings listed in crank/flywheel horsepower

There is also an upgraded thick wall wrist pin option, but I don't know what that does for HP rating.
Thick wall wrist pins aren't really for HP as much as they are for engine speed. I have a head that's modified to rev out to 8000 RPM. Forces exerted on the wrist pin can get exponentially higher and more violent at higher RPMs and cause a thinner pin to fail. I don't really think it's 100% necessary, but for me it was just cheap insurance that won't happen.
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 Old Today, 08:39 AM   #21
 
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You can just polish the cap and head side and try it with good cams but i still think even a complete good used head would be easy to find. A lot, have blown the base with a hole on the bloc so they have a spare head for years that they would probably sell for cheap...
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2007 rusted Speed6... in progress...
1993 Ford Probe KLZE 143dB
2012 Mazda3 Gs-sky 6.5l/100 when transporting speed parts
1989 GM 6.2 diesel pickup
Wife drive 2010 CX7

2007 speed3 burned (i'm proud to ran 12.7s with it)

...Because French Canadian...
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 Old Today, 09:08 AM   #22
 
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I have 2 "spare" heads.
One of them has minor scoring like yours, the other I plan to P&P one day.
__________________
2006 MS6 GT - 158k Miles (Forged @ 157,116)
Manley 88mm Pistons & H-Tuff Rods, King Bearings
Stock Head/Cams, Stock Int/Exh Manifolds
Versatuner, 3-bar MAP, ITV22's, CP-e TMIC
CS Turbo/DP/RP/HPFP/BPV/R-DiffMount
White Widow F-DiffMount, Whiteline RSB
Russian Bushings in Back, Poly FSB Bushings, Magnaflow CBE
JBR Tru-3.5/3-port EBCS/EGR-D
Damond RMM/PMM/Stage 2 OCC/PCV Plate
AWR TMM on stand-by
Other rides:
2002 Tacoma ExtCab 2.4L 5spd 2WD - 355k mile Parts Getter
2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015)
History:
2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen (With several runs past 180, I'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't stolen. So, in a way, I'm thankful.)
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)
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