First attempt at tuning timing advance. Logs inside!

[dsmluck]

Ok so I thought I would take a stab at advancing timing and seeing if I could pull some more power. I have a few questions if someone with knowledge can help me.

First my mods:
SRI
AP with modified stage 2+ map.
Catless DP
MBC set to 17.5psi
Methanol Injection (60 meth/40 water) hits at 10 psi @ 225 ml/m (close to D05)
Thermal gaskets
TB coolant bypass
EGR delete
30% E85

Never knock. BATs 10 degrees or so below ambient @ WOT (have hit 20 below ambient in 90 degree weather). FP stable at 1600 psi but internals going on this weekend.

What I did was log a run with the OTS map. Then compared the Load with the timing at specific RPMS and made a 5% adjustment on the relevant data points. Then went back did another run and logged again (all 4th gear). Timing was .5 to 1 degree higher across the board.

What I want to know is how far should I push the timing in the higher RPMS? Would running 15 or 16 degrees throw me too close to MBT? I doubt I will ever see any knock due to the fact that I am running meth AND an E85 mix. Also I would like to know what I should shoot for the lower RPMS under the peak timing. Do you raise them the same percentage as the upper RPMS or can you run more timing in the mid range? I modified the timing at WOT load from 3500 on.

Here are my logs. The first is with timing modified. The second is the stock timing.

[wolly6973]

I believe others recommend pushing timing WITHOUT meth.
Meth can help hide KR so well that you may go well beyond MBT before you realize it, then it may be too late...

[Bucker]

I don't have meth, so my timing will never be as cool as yours can be, but I just added it until I saw some minor KR then I pulled a bit back.

Make sure you raised the knock table to 6700 so you are monitoring all the way to RL, otherwise stock it is set to 5700.

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by Bucker I don't have meth, so my timing will never be as cool as yours can be, but I just added it until I saw some minor KR then I pulled a bit back. Make sure you raised the knock table to 6700 so you are monitoring all the way to RL, otherwise stock it is set to 5700.

Well I am worried about getting past MBT more than knock. I did set the knock to be monitored to 6700.

One thing that I forgot to mention is that in both of the logs CALC LOAD starts @ 175 at 4000 and drops to 140-135 by 5800. My calc load is pretty low it seems.

Originally Posted by wolly6973 I believe others recommend pushing timing WITHOUT meth. Meth can help hide KR so well that you may go well beyond MBT before you realize it, then it may be too late...

So i should pull the fuse to my meth and run again? Won't my E85 have the same effect? I cant imagine I would be close to MBT after such a small adjustment from a stock map.

Car pulls like a fucking raped ape right now though.

[manelscout4life]

You need more boost. Alot more.

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by manelscout4life You need more boost. Alot more.

Been up and down that road. At nearly 5500ft elevation there is no more boost to be had. 18 psi seems like the absolute limit. I have tried 19 and 20 and its hot air. 17.5 seems like the sweet spot. 18 psi here is the equivalent of 20.5 or so at sea level.



Here is the full log from my modified timing map.

[manelscout4life]

O yeah that's right I remember now.

Edit: never mind your WGDC is pretty low. You can def still have more boost. Post a screen shot of your WGDC. Your using the ap right?

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by manelscout4life O yeah that's right I remember now. Edit: never mind your WGDC is pretty low. You can def still have more boost. Post a screen shot of your WGDC. Your using the ap right?

I am bypassing the AP for my boost and using an MBC. From the math of it the turbo should be near flaming at 18 psi at my altitude. I would love to get more boost from it but without any real way to tell how hot it is running it seems kinda dicey.

[wolly6973]

This is a good timing thread...
Should we increase timing?

[TRex]

Originally Posted by dsmluck I am bypassing the AP for my boost and using an MBC. From the math of it the turbo should be near flaming at 18 psi at my altitude. I would love to get more boost from it but without any real way to tell how hot it is running it seems kinda dicey.

how exactly are determining it is a flame thrower at 18 psi?

did you see a g/s increase when you messed with timing?

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by TRex how exactly are determining it is a flame thrower at 18 psi? did you see a g/s increase when you messed with timing?

Atmospheric pressure is 14.5psi at sea level. Here it is 12.5 I believe. The Turbo has to make up that 2psi difference before it is at the same boost pressure it would be at sea level. On top of that the air has less oxygen. I am assuming that 20+ psi at sea level is pushing the k04 to its limit no?

I didn't log g/s but I can run a few logs and compare old map with new.

[the_caruch]

Originally Posted by dsmluck Atmospheric pressure is 14.5psi at sea level. Here it is 12.5 I believe. The Turbo has to make up that 2psi difference before it is at the same boost pressure it would be at sea level. On top of that the air has less oxygen. I am assuming that 20+ psi at sea level is pushing the k04 to its limit no? I didn't log g/s but I can run a few logs and compare old map with new.

You can run high boost during the mid-range. I run about 22-23psi in the mid-range and it tapers to 16.

It's best to keep your WGDC around the 70-80% range during the run. So i'd have to agree as well that the turbo has room to work with.

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by the_caruch You can run high boost during the mid-range. I run about 22-23psi in the mid-range and it tapers to 16. It's best to keep your WGDC around the 70-80% range during the run. So i'd have to agree as well that the turbo has room to work with.

Ok I logged the three runs below. WGDC % is still in the 30% to 40% even at 20psi. Could my wastegate actuator be fucked? The run did get a little faster on the 17 psi timing one but the gain in airflow was next to nothing. The 20 psi one was slightly slower but I have to assume it was making more power because my fuel pressure took a shit in the 3300-3700 range. Haven't seen it do that since 20 degree weather.

Any way here they are. Any comments appreciated.




Edit:

222 max g/s....That blows.

I just realized that I should have done a MAF calibration first. How much can a non calibrated MAF skew the numbers? Guess I will wait until after the HPFP internal install and do it.

[dsmluck]

Bump. Any suggestions?

[cbusby]

Originally Posted by dsmluck I just realized that I should have done a MAF calibration first. How much can a non calibrated MAF skew the numbers? Guess I will wait until after the HPFP internal install and do it.

Judging by what I read on the MAF Calibration post, it's very important. I would definitely do that, going to be the first thing I do when I get my AP tomorrow.

[Bucker]

Log Cal Load in the future if you can too, that and g/s can give us a good idea of whats going on. Also remember that going up or down hill in the log will have a big effect on the times.

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by Bucker Log Cal Load in the future if you can too, that and g/s can give us a good idea of whats going on. Also remember that going up or down hill in the log will have a big effect on the times.

Oh yea I have that logged just cut it off to fit the other logs. Will my calculated load be effected by me running and MBC? All logs were done on the same stretch of road back to back.

On a side note I went out to run another log and the car started popping in 3rd. Saw some .7-1.0 kr and pulled off. Got on it again and more .7-1 kr. Realized something was up and flipped to HPFP. Went WOT hit 750psi immediately let off and realized I am done with logging until after my new internals are broken in after the install tomorrow. I will also do a boost leak test and a maf calibration and hold off doing anymore WOT runs till all that is done.

Here is the full log from the 20psi run.
Thanks!

[phate]

Step 1) MAF CAL
Step 2) Boost pressure @ slightly rich AFR
Step 3) Dial in Fueling targets
Step 4) timing

ps - internals take ~3 seconds to break in.

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by phate Step 1) MAF CAL Step 2) Boost pressure @ slightly rich AFR Step 3) Dial in Fueling targets Step 4) timing ps - internals take ~3 seconds to break in.

Hmm I thought I read you gotta take it easy for 100 miles after install? I hope I was wrong.

1) Will do maf cal ASAP after LTFT settle after internal install.
2) Why adjust boost at richer AFR? Just for safety right? I am still confused at how I am supposed to tell how much boost I can run safely on the K04 at my altitude. Some local guys say 16psi is the max but butt dyno and 1/4 mile times say different.
3) Hesitant to mess with fueling trims. I thought they seemed spot on before minus some 3500-4000 low 12's AFR due to fueling issues. Is 11.5 not the ideal target? What do you suggest?
4) Adjusted without spraying methanol correct?

[phate]

Originally Posted by dsmluck Hmm I thought I read you gotta take it easy for 100 miles after install? I hope I was wrong. 1) Will do maf cal ASAP after LTFT settle after internal install. 2) Why adjust boost at richer AFR? Just for safety right? I am still confused at how I am supposed to tell how much boost I can run safely on the K04 at my altitude. Some local guys say 16psi is the max but butt dyno and 1/4 mile times say different. Adjust at richer AFR for safety factor, yes. It's tough to say how much boost you can run. Altitude messes with the pressure ratio. I would just watch out for really high BAT's - 150°+ @ WOT on the top end is what I consider "hot". I've run mine up there with gas and the BAT comp tables pull enough timing for it. If it feels faster and you aren't getting crazy high BAT's, then run it. 3) Hesitant to mess with fueling trims. I thought they seemed spot on before minus some 3500-4000 low 12's AFR due to fueling issues. Is 11.5 not the ideal target? What do you suggest? You will be changing targets, not trims. 11.5 is fine, but some of us like a little leaner - around 12-12.2:1. BUT, with K04 and stock TMIC, if you run it leaner, you need to be very careful with timing. 4) Adjusted without spraying methanol correct? I would probably adjust without meth. Meth is a crutch, and it may not always be there. [But its fun when it is there )

See notes in red.

Just remember that it is a system, and all parts affect one another. Leaning out the fuel typically causes a faster combustion, reducing the need for timing...Higher BAT's effectively increase timing...More airflow increases BAT's, etc, and so on...


Edit: KMD mentioned this on Facebook a while back:

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by phate See notes in red. Just remember that it is a system, and all parts affect one another. Leaning out the fuel typically causes a faster combustion, reducing the need for timing...Higher BAT's effectively increase timing...More airflow increases BAT's, etc, and so on... Edit: KMD mentioned this on Facebook a while back:

I forgot to mention I have a CX Racing FMIC as well. This is why I am confused about the proper boost level. I don't see high BATs. Today was 70 degrees and I was usually seeing 60-70 BATs At WOT @ 17 psi. Should I pull plug on meth and see when the BATs start to climb?

As for AFR I think I will leave it at 11.5 and give myself a bit of a cushion for a meth failure.

Where do you think I would see more gains? Less timing and higher fuel targets (say 12 ish) or more timing advance and a richer AFR? What would likely be the safer route? I can't fathom that my turbo has anymore to spin past 20psi so I think boost is likely close to maxed.

[manelscout4life]

Turn off the meth, bump your afrs to 11.8 if your running 93oct and bump boost until you see your BAT's go up alot. Going up 5-10 degrees during a run is usually around what I see at sea level hitting 20 psi to 18 psi at redline

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by manelscout4life Turn off the meth, bump your afrs to 11.8 if your running 93oct and bump boost until you see your BAT's go up alot. Going up 5-10 degrees during a run is usually around what I see at sea level hitting 20 psi to 18 psi at redline

Running a mixture of 4 gallons E85 to the rest 91 due to no 93 here. I willing to be when I disconnect the meth the BATs at 20psi are gonna be a bit high.

[dooderek]

not sure if this will help you at all, but heres my log with full meth spray running aggressive timing

[Bucker]

Just to chime in, I was doing WOT logs on my new Autotech internals within 5 miles of install.

Originally Posted by dsmluck I forgot to mention I have a CX Racing FMIC as well. This is why I am confused about the proper boost level. I don't see high BATs. Today was 70 degrees and I was usually seeing 60-70 BATs At WOT @ 17 psi. Should I pull plug on meth and see when the BATs start to climb? As for AFR I think I will leave it at 11.5 and give myself a bit of a cushion for a meth failure. Where do you think I would see more gains? Less timing and higher fuel targets (say 12 ish) or more timing advance and a richer AFR? What would likely be the safer route? I can't fathom that my turbo has anymore to spin past 20psi so I think boost is likely close to maxed.

Also to note I have no Meth or upgraded intercooler and I have an 11.9 AFR commanded.

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by DerekB not sure if this will help you at all, but heres my log with full meth spray running aggressive timing

My timing looks like it is about .5 to 1 degree more advanced than that. Also my load is about 35 less. Even if I hadn't nudged the stock map the timing would seem high because my load is soo low. I have no idea what is up with my WGDC...

I guess I just have to follow the steps phate laid out and then re-log and see where that gets me.

One thing though what AFR where you targeting? I know with meth it will drop the AFR a bit but I am unsure if the ecu attempts to compensate for this extra fuel or if it actually drops the AFR from where you have it targeted. I was thinking about trying to target 12.0 in the mid to late RPMS.

Originally Posted by Bucker Just to chime in, I was doing WOT logs on my new Autotech internals within 5 miles of install. Also to note I have no Meth or upgraded intercooler and I have an 11.9 AFR commanded.

Do you notice a difference between say a 11.5 AFR and a 12.0 as far as power wise?

[Bucker]

I havent noticed differences since I put a tune on this thing, I think my senses are fucked up from my TBI, lol. For real.

I bet there would be differences in a competition or on a dyno though.

[dsmluck]

The commanded AFR table is Fuel OL/WOT commanded EQ (no knock A) correct? I did the Lamda conversion and even with the methanol it seems the ECU compensates to hit its target. Its actually looks like there is power to be made in the upper rpm ranges because its running in the low 11's. I assume that is because usually BATs elevate in that region?

Originally Posted by Bucker I havent noticed differences since I put a tune on this thing, I think my senses are fucked up from my TBI, lol. For real. I bet there would be differences in a competition or on a dyno though.

Iraq or Afghanistan?

The car already feels much quicker than when I ran a 13.8 (actually fast for stock k04 at my altitude) but butt dynos are not always accurate. Stock Mazdaspeed 3's run mid 15's with 12psi of boost. Its horrible.

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by dsmluck The commanded AFR table is Fuel OL/WOT commanded EQ (no knock A) correct? I did the Lamda conversion and even with the methanol it seems the ECU compensates to hit its target. Its actually looks like there is power to be made in the upper rpm ranges because its running in the low 11's. I assume that is because usually BATs elevate in that region? Iraq or Afghanistan? The car already feels much quicker than when I ran a 13.8 (actually fast for stock k04 at my altitude) but dynos are not always accurate.

Icrack for a couple of years. Ugh.

I would assume that it goes richer because of the BATs and the fact that anything going wrong is amplified by engine speed.

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by Bucker Icrack for a couple of years. Ugh. I would assume that it goes richer because of the BATs and the fact that anything going wrong is amplified by engine speed.

Yeap fuck that place in the ass.

So I did the internals and here is a 4th gear log 2 minutes after I "broke" in the internals by building fuel pressure than starting the car per everyone advice.

Pressure looks good. Got some .7 to .3 knock. Not really sure why. Maybe its my OEM plugs? I am also not sure why I have a weird spike in AFR for no reason?

First thing tomorrow I am going to do a Maf Cal. LTFT was...ugly after the install. On a positive note I was getting on to the highway and rolled slowly into 2nd at 4k rpm, punched it and spun 2nd till I shifted to third. Never broke traction like that before.

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by dsmluck Yeap fuck that place in the ass. So I did the internals and here is a 4th gear log 2 minutes after I "broke" in the internals by building fuel pressure than starting the car per everyone advice. Pressure looks good. Got some .7 to .3 knock. Not really sure why. Maybe its my OEM plugs? I am also not sure why I have a weird spike in AFR for no reason? First thing tomorrow I am going to do a Maf Cal. LTFT was...ugly after the install. On a positive note I was getting on to the highway and rolled slowly into 2nd at 4k rpm, punched it and spun 2nd till I shifted to third. Never broke traction like that before.

Log looks pretty good. I wouldn't be concerned about that AFR spike, it isn' too huge and it is early on in the log.

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by Bucker Log looks pretty good. I wouldn't be concerned about that AFR spike, it isn' too huge and it is early on in the log.

After the MAF Cal I am going to lean the AFR's out in the 4000rpm range and up to 11.8. I will post another log after that is done.

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by dsmluck After the MAF Cal I am going to lean the AFR's out in the 4000rpm range and up to 11.8. I will post another log after that is done.

Awesome. Sounds good man.