KNocK

[racingred]

Well I just did a WOT log in 4th gear and would like you guys to take a look and let me know whats going on?

I ran Stage1 93OCT OTS map as my car is basically stock except TP.

Some things to reckon:

WGDC - 99%
Knock >3

I am also seeing parrt load knock greater than 7

Yikes

[PheOniX]

try a 91 octane map

[racingred]

I will try that and let you know how that goes but it doesn't sound like the solution...I may need to try the stock map too see if anything arises here too. I do like that 93 map though.

[Spoolme]

fucking knock... shit makes me angry. good luck

[reconbygod12]

car turned gay doesnt like you anymore

[R.MS3]

Problems:

- Boost too high, no mods to support it

- AFR a bit lean, needs a MAF calibration. Should stay around 11.6 max on WOT.

- WG is too high because boost is too high, gotta lower boost past 5.5k rpm. It will be better with the MAF calibration though so try that first.

- Fuel pump showing small signs that it could fail soon. Monitor to make sure it doesn't go below 1600psi at WOT.

- KR will be better after AFR gets fixed and boost lowered a little.

[starscream]

Check your injector seals? I mean thats been tossed around that with KR and not being able to do anything to tune it out, that it might be your injectors seals. Just a thought.

[wolly6973]

There are a lot more things to try before you assume seals.
Try the lower octane map.
Try dumping in 3 gallons of e85.
Try pulling timing where you see knock.
If any of these change your KR significantly, it is not your seals.

[racingred]

Originally Posted by R.MS3 Problems: - Boost too high, no mods to support it - AFR a bit lean, needs a MAF calibration. Should stay around 11.6 max on WOT. - WG is too high because boost is too high, gotta lower boost past 5.5k rpm. It will be better with the MAF calibration though so try that first. - Fuel pump showing small signs that it could fail soon. Monitor to make sure it doesn't go below 1600psi at WOT. - KR will be better after AFR gets fixed and boost lowered a little.

Why would I need a MAF calibration? Its the stock airbox?

Once I try the 91 map and stock MAP, I will post if there is knock. Since boost levels are lower on those, I will see if that + AFR is causing knock.

[dooderek]

do you have any power mods? also log bats. do a wot run at night when its cold and report.

[R.MS3]

Originally Posted by racingred Why would I need a MAF calibration? Its the stock airbox? Once I try the 91 map and stock MAP, I will post if there is knock. Since boost levels are lower on those, I will see if that + AFR is causing knock.

If you're seeing lean AFR's, you usually gotta adjust the MAF calibration to richen you up more. Raising MAF g/s will also raise amount of fuel being dumped into the mixture, making the mixture richer.

But how long were you on that map before you did the log? AFter a flash, it's good to wait about 10-20 miles before making WOT runs so the trims can settle. If it's done too soon, you will see leaner AFR's.

I think the reason youre seeing the knock is before you're seeing 12's AFR and high boost.

Post your map on this thread and i'll help you out fixing it.

[racingred]

I think I will be using this map for now....I still register knock but at least this time it was <2.

I dont think I have a problem with the AFR since:
- I have little deviance in STFT and LTFT
- I think I am meeting AFR targets according to COBB map notes.

@R.MS3...I think I may have to agree with you that high boost may be the cause.

[R.MS3]

Advice: You're NOT seeing the AFR targets of the map...

You're seeing 12.2AFR and that's knocking. When the car knocks, it dumps more fuel to prevent damage so your actual AFR is worse than that a bit.

The map calls for 11.8AFR BUT w/out breather mods or a TMIC, it's still a bit high IMO. A 11.6AFR is best but for that to happen, you need to tweak the MAF tables.

You might be seeing less than 2 counts of knock know but trust me, you will see it higher.

Here's a map for a stock tune i had on my car if you want to try. It's PRETTY safe, 11.3AFR and 15psi of boost. If you want to try it, run it for 20 miles then go WOT and post logs. I can then probably edit this map and up the boost and lean you out a little more if everything is okay.

You would need to open this map in ATR (update to the latest version released today as well as firmware for the AP) and just re-save it before loading into the AP.

[wolly6973]

I don't think the OTS maps are targeting 12 + AFRs...

You need to do a MAF cal.

EDIT: Didn't realize how much time had passed since I opened the thread. Do what he said ^^

[racingred]

Originally Posted by R.MS3 Advice: You're NOT seeing the AFR targets of the map... You're seeing 12.2AFR and that's knocking. When the car knocks, it dumps more fuel to prevent damage so your actual AFR is worse than that a bit. The map calls for 11.8AFR BUT w/out breather mods or a TMIC, it's still a bit high IMO. A 11.6AFR is best but for that to happen, you need to tweak the MAF tables. You might be seeing less than 2 counts of knock know but trust me, you will see it higher. Here's a map for a stock tune i had on my car if you want to try. It's PRETTY safe, 11.3AFR and 15psi of boost. If you want to try it, run it for 20 miles then go WOT and post logs. I can then probably edit this map and up the boost and lean you out a little more if everything is okay. You would need to open this map in ATR (update to the latest version released today as well as firmware for the AP) and just re-save it before loading into the AP.

I have been reading about this boost based tuning and making notes from the dano boost thread. I will be doing this form of tuning after getting all my mods installed and definitely try this one. After comparing this map with what is required, this map maybe spot on thus far (time will tell kudos). Did you use this map wiith a stock airbox? If not, I will have to calibrate. I may have to do this anyways. After pulling some logs with this map, I will post and as said, we go from there.

[racingred]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 I don't think the OTS maps are targeting 12 + AFRs... You need to do a MAF cal. EDIT: Didn't realize how much time had passed since I opened the thread. Do what he said ^^

I took a look at the map notes and I guess COBB was targeting lower AFR heading down to 11 @ redline. I do see however from the logs that I posted that both STFT and LTFT shows 0.18@WOT. I am not sure how much a calibration would help.

[phate]

Originally Posted by racingred I took a look at the map notes and I guess COBB was targeting lower AFR heading down to 11 @ redline. I do see however from the logs that I posted that both STFT and LTFT shows 0.18@WOT. I am not sure how much a calibration would help.

When STFT and LTFT go to .16 (or something close) and stay there in the high RPM's, that indicates that you are in open loop. You have to compare target AFR's to actual AFR's. The percent difference between the two is how much your MAF calibration is off in that area of the MAF curve.

[racingred]

Please see attachment along with first datalog. The targets seem to match up

[phate]

AFR seems fine. Your WGDC is probably that high because you are running the stock airbox. It is very restrictive, and creates a depression, thus causing a high pressure ration, needing very high turbine speeds, which needs lots of exhaust to spin the turbo, which is going to cause high BAT's, which might be causing your knock. RUN ON SENTENCES

[R.MS3]

If you keep thinking your shit is following what the map is saying, then by all means keep the map. More than one person said it's not good. I know what the map is targeting there, from your logs i'm saying it's not.

Try my map and see how it plays out, then we can make it into a better/more powerful tune. Run 30 miles on it and do some WOT logs after.

[racingred]

Originally Posted by R.MS3 If you keep thinking your shit is following what the map is saying, then by all means keep the map. More than one person said it's not good. I know what the map is targeting there, from your logs i'm saying it's not. Try my map and see how it plays out, then we can make it into a better/more powerful tune. Run 30 miles on it and do some WOT logs after.

I am only looking for explanations as well as understanding...that's all!!!

phate said I should look at the targeted values for versus actual and that's what we did. Knock can be caused by an array of stuff and obviously something is wrong here.

I am definitely loading up that map tomorrow. Was this map used with the stock airbox or did you already install an intake?

Thanks,

[R.MS3]

All stock car w/ a stock airbox.

I looked in two datalogs and you can clearly see your AFR at 12.2/12.3 when the map never calls for that at those RPM ranges.

Phate is right, you should compare actual vs targeted to make sure your calibration is okay. All i'm saying they don't match too well and what the map is calling for is a bit too lean for a stock car. Remember that OTS maps are not perfect, otherwise you wouldn't see knock like you're seeing.

Looking forward to the results of the map. The map is made for 93 octane, so make sure your fuel matches that octane level. I made 238whp/268tq on a dyno that had stg.2 guys doing about 265whp/280tq. I was all stock with just this tune.

[racingred]

Originally Posted by R.MS3 All stock car w/ a stock airbox. I looked in two datalogs and you can clearly see your AFR at 12.2/12.3 when the map never calls for that at those RPM ranges. Phate is right, you should compare actual vs targeted to make sure your calibration is okay. All i'm saying they don't match too well and what the map is calling for is a bit too lean for a stock car. Remember that OTS maps are not perfect, otherwise you wouldn't see knock like you're seeing. Looking forward to the results of the map. The map is made for 93 octane, so make sure your fuel matches that octane level. I made 238whp/268tq on a dyno that had stg.2 guys doing about 265whp/280tq. I was all stock with just this tune.

I think you are wrong here...these AFR matched up with what was targeted +-10%.

Please see attached datalogs. I did some WOT logs after loading map. To me it seem that my BAT are on the rise that maybe causing the knock before knock fuel trims level it out. Also, targeted 15 psi wasn't met either.

[wolly6973]

You want to be closer than 10% on targeted vs actual afr.
It needs to be more like +- 1%

Once again, you can continue to not listen and do what you like, since it is your car, but DO A MAF CAL!

[racingred]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 You want to be closer than 10% on targeted vs actual afr. It needs to be more like +- 1% Once again, you can continue to not listen and do what you like, since it is your car, but DO A MAF CAL!

I was reading through Dano boost thread and I came across this from Dano (this is why I think calibration is all that necessary). I am doing WOT pulls will always be in OL. Phate may confirm if I am correct.

"BTW if your MAF is spot on there is no reason to wait for the ECU to learn LTFTs before logging WOT runs. In fact, even if its off the ECU rarely trims in OL.

It will trim eventually if your MAF is way off but as you can imagine, it can only learn those OL trims [ read voltage ranges] if you spend a lot of time in those vt ranges to fill them in. Kinda a catch 22 there and would take hundreds of miles to learn them.

you will know your MAF is off by looking at the difference between Commanded AFR and Actual AFR this is one very good reason to command the same AFR through the entire RPM range. At least until you know your MAF if correct. As long as you only see a tenth of a point difference through the run [without any KR recorded] your MAF is gold. so I command 11.9 and I get 11.76 and 11.9 logged. That is only 1 tenth of a difference on my O2 sensor. It will only ever go from 11.76 to 11.9 with 11.76 actually being 11.8. Make sense??

Long story short, IMO when tuning there is no need to wait for anything after a map change to go WOT and log UNLESS you changed your intake and/or modified your MAF tables. This is of course my opinion and others feel differently. consider this...when you go to get a Protune on the dyno do you think they run your car on the dyno for ~50 miles after each map change? nope! They MIGHT run it some after a MAF calibration but that's it."

[R.MS3]

I don't understand why people ask for advice and then tell us WE'RE wrong...

What Dano said is CORRECT, 100%. If you look at his example, that's a tenth difference. So if the map calls for 11.8, you shouldn't be seeing anything above 11.9-12. You were seeing 12.3 on the area where it called 11.9 or so, and that was KNOCKING.

Please keep in mind anything ABOVE 11.8AFR on a stock airbox is too lean. That's what you should know.

Also, Dano is right about the no-need to wait too much IF your MAF calibration doesn't change. On your case, it's just a good idea to rule out the problem where the car might still be learning your fuel trims.

Did you run the map i sent you? Can you post the logs? It's the only way to tell how your car is behaving, or if it's a problem with your original tune. On my map, you should see around 11.3AFR pretty much the entire run. Don't worry about the boost yet as the first thing that needs to be fixed on any tune is your MAF and AFR's.

[wolly6973]

What part of the post are you referring to?

If your MAF is calibrated correctly, yes you can go WOT whenever you want.
Yours is not.

It will eventually learn the trims at WOT, but this takes a lot of time, more than just a few WOT pulls. Also, since yours is off so far from requested, it is dangerous.

[racingred]

I forgot to attach them on my earlier post...

[R.MS3]

Well... i think that looks way better and it's pretty much what i set on the map.

Some minor things:

- You're seeing 11.6AFR instead of 11.3AFR set on the map for most of the run. That requires a little tweak on the upper part of your MAF table, not a huge issue.

- The knock levels can be seen around the same area on both logs but it's LESS than 1. You run 93 octane right? Bringing you down to 11.3AFR might solve this issue but if it doesn't, we can lower timing just a bit on that area.

- Your boost is almost dead-on to the map. You're over just 1psi, probably because of the TP, but that's no a problem at all and can be fixed by changing the WG duty.

Overall i think it's pretty good. Fuel pressure is okay, WG has 40% of life left still, so boost can be upped a little more.

Tip: Remove the unnecessary parameters from the log like vehicle speed and STFT. It just takes away from the log rate.

I can make some tweaks and send you an updated map soon if you like.

[racingred]

Tweaks will be nice...I always run 93 regardless. There is also one thing I noted, The BAT had increased to 135 that may cause knock too. I haven't seen any PT knock as yet though although it's really hot. Let's see what the tweaks will do.

[R.MS3]

Pt knock will ALWAYS happen regardless. That's just false knock though, the car is just retarding timing to achieve better gas mileage. Don't worry too much about that.

BAT do increase like that, especially with a restrictive airbox. You would need a TMIC/FMIC to get better BAT's. You're right about facing some knock because of high BAT's so for now, you gotta try to avoid going WOT too much when the TMIC is heatsoaked.

[racingred]

I did see alot of PL knock on the stage 1 OTS maps but since running the BT map, I have yet to see it which I guess is good. I will be installing a FMIC and others in the next week or so...its just a matter of finding the time needed.

[R.MS3]

If you're installing mods, then your tune will have to change as well. I'll just make these tweaks and then you can base yourself on the map to up the boost/change afr/timing/etc. to match your new mods.

[racingred]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 What part of the post are you referring to? If your MAF is calibrated correctly, yes you can go WOT whenever you want. Yours is not. It will eventually learn the trims at WOT, but this takes a lot of time, more than just a few WOT pulls. Also, since yours is off so far from requested, it is dangerous.

Well this was my understanding and you can correct me if I am wrong (bcuz I normally am);

Bcuz I am doing WOT pulls, that automatically puts me in OL situation and the only calibration I need is the one where I correct actual AFR with targeted ones. I am aware that I may one for CL, but since the map I am using is stock airbox, I can't be off that badly.

Let me know where I wrong in my thought process cuz obviously that needs calibrating too.

[R.MS3]

There are two parts to MAF calibration: CL and OL calibration, where in both cases you need to adjust the MAF tables.

So yeah, you're about right and you shouldn't have to touch the MAF much if you're all stock. 11.6 to 11.3 from my map is not that bad so i'll adjust that after i get that log with MAF voltage included.

[racingred]

Please see attached WOT logs with MAF voltages. Please be aware that it was hot today but these logs are since evening when it has cooled down a bit.

[R.MS3]

Originally Posted by racingred Please see attached WOT logs with MAF voltages. Please be aware that it was hot today but these logs are since evening when it has cooled down a bit.

How long did you have on this map? It looks like you might have a leak somewhere because the tune is targeting 11.3AFR and your'e seeing on average about 11.8.

How is your LTFT as well?

I just want to make sure you're using my map right? v1a?

I would consider making your own boost leak tester to make sure you're free of leaks.

[PheOniX]

leak is a definite possibility. WGDC was really high from the start

[racingred]

I guess leaks is a real possibility since I did take IC off a couple weeks ago. Will this solve the knock problems though? I am using the v1a BT map yes..

[R.MS3]

Most likely... if everything is okay with your car, then the AFR should be pretty close to what we set on the map since you're using the stock airbox. I'll double-check to make sure the calibration on this map matches the stock one.