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 Old 09-13-2017, 06:49 PM   #1
 
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Default Knock with cooler temps! why?

Hey everyone, so during the heat of the summer I dialed in a comfortable 330 whp at 22 psi, 11* at 6k, and 11.5 AFR tapered, 92% IDC, with the Bnr S4. I plateaued at 13* due to getting knock of around 3-4*, so I brought it back down to 11*.

I was confused, as this kept me stuck at 330 whp which didn't make sense because I'm mixing 1.5 gallons of in tank methanol with 94 octane.

I thought maybe the CNT catted dp and Stock catback might have been too restrictive, trapping heat in the combustion chambers, so I installed a CNT catback and am still currently waiting for the CNT catless dp, as they are on back order.

After installing the CNT catback, right off the bat, I had to drop wgdc because the car would over shoot boost targets. Goes to show that the stock cat back does indeed pose a restriction at around 22 psi with good intake flow mods. But then again I did have an aftermarket exhaust tip on the Stock catback that tapered inward to 2 inches

Anyways, since I backed timing down to 11*, I drove that tune for the remainder of the summer with no knock issues.

Summer is slowly starting to come to a close now, and air temps at night are starting to get cooler! Next thing I know, my 4th gear logs are showing knock values around 4* at the same boost pressure, 1.5 gallons of in tank meth, and WMI turned on just for cooling. During the day when it's warmer, no knock what so ever. Unfortunately I deleted those logs but I can assure you that there were no abnormalities with other parameters. The only change was cooler ambient air temperature.

This happened several times on different nights in the 5k to 55k rpm range. I decided to lower vvt advance at 5k from 8 (OTS), to 5 but that didn't help. The only thing that helped was lowering timing.

So I dialed timing down even further for safety to 8.5* at 6k until I can figure it out.

Is it possible that cooler air can induce knock? If so, do I need to step it up to 2 gallons of in tank meth for more octane? Unfortunately I don't have e85 in my area and my knock tables are OTS because I'm skeptical to make changes.

I was always under the impression that when tuning, we want to be in the hottest possible ambient temps to ensure we won't knock, but now I'm thinking that tuning in cooler temps might be a better idea as I have read that with cooler temps, comes higher cylinder pressures, which in essence can lead to knock.

Has anybody had any experiences with getting knock like this in cooler temps, and what was your remedy? Appreciate it! Thanks
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 Old 09-14-2017, 05:59 AM   #2
 
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Load tuning or boost tuning? If boost, 22psi in cold is more air than 22psi in warm. Or with load tuning your not actually hitting your load targets unless its cold outside - or overshooting them in the cold? Thats all I got considering your fine when it warms up during the day.
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 Old 09-14-2017, 06:48 AM   #3
 
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not 100% sure but i think VVT timing work opposite to spark timing....i think it lower dynamic compression to reduce knock at low rpm....

As said above, cold charge bring a lot more oxygen for the same boost. ...just look at your flow g/s...So if you are boost based, you are making more torque with cold weather it is why you had to lower your WG duty to limit overboosting etc...
More oxygen and fuel with same dynamic compression would be easier to ignite and burn at the same rpm. I think it is why we have timing tables affected by BAT temperature...
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 Old 09-14-2017, 06:56 AM   #4
 
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Originally Posted by speed23 View Post
Load tuning or boost tuning? If boost, 22psi in cold is more air than 22psi in warm. Or with load tuning your not actually hitting your load targets unless its cold outside - or overshooting them in the cold? Thats all I got considering your fine when it warms up during the day.
Thanks for the help. I'm hybrid tuning. Targetting boost and limiting load. I think my load caps might be set to high. I've been setting them 0.10 load higher than acheived. I will try to set them 0.01 load higher than acheived this weekend and do some more testing. I will also start mixing 2 gallons of in tank methanol instead of 1.5 gallons. We will see what I can get away with in terms of timing. I'm still convinced that I need more octane because I was only able to get away with 13* of ignition timing at 6k rpm in the heat of summer at 22psi which capped me at 330 whp. I should be making more as I have good compression in all cylinders.

You may be right. The higher loads acheived in cooler temps might be just enough to cause knock.
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 Old 09-14-2017, 07:21 AM   #5
 
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Originally Posted by Jeff23spl View Post
not 100% sure but i think VVT timing work opposite to spark timing....i think it lower dynamic compression to reduce knock at low rpm....

As said above, cold charge bring a lot more oxygen for the same boost. ...just look at your flow g/s...So if you are boost based, you are making more torque with cold weather it is why you had to lower your WG duty to limit overboosting etc...
More oxygen and fuel with same dynamic compression would be easier to ignite and burn at the same rpm. I think it is why we have timing tables affected by BAT temperature...
I was under the impression that increasing vvt advance in the low to mid range rpms helps increase cylinder filling and help with scavenging which increases torque?

I had to lower wgdc when I installed the cnt catback. It wasn't due to cooler temps. The catback just flows more.

I looked at the BAT vs IGN comp tables but I don't think they will be able to compensate for lower temps accurately because BAT's are always moving around, and don't necessarily match with ambient air density on a given day.

I'm leaning towards needing more octane and setting load caps to within 0.01 of acheived loads. I have some time this weekend to tinker
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 Old 09-14-2017, 01:21 PM   #6
 
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Originally Posted by BuddySpeed3 View Post
I was under the impression that increasing vvt advance in the low to mid range rpms helps increase cylinder filling and help with scavenging which increases torque?

I had to lower wgdc when I installed the cnt catback. It wasn't due to cooler temps. The catback just flows more.

I looked at the BAT vs IGN comp tables but I don't think they will be able to compensate for lower temps accurately because BAT's are always moving around, and don't necessarily match with ambient air density on a given day.

I'm leaning towards needing more octane and setting load caps to within 0.01 of acheived loads. I have some time this weekend to tinker
I read again that thread and it seem you were right lowering vvt to lower dynamic compression but if it is percent of 18deg like it is said there, goring from 8 to 5 just change 0.54 deg...
Dynamic Compression Ratios... and blown engines
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 Old 09-15-2017, 11:30 AM   #7
 
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Originally Posted by Jeff23spl View Post
I read again that thread and it seem you were right lowering vvt to lower dynamic compression but if it is percent of 18deg like it is said there, goring from 8 to 5 just change 0.54 deg...
Dynamic Compression Ratios... and blown engines
Interesting! I lowered it to 0* at 5k. Gonna run 2 gallons of in tank meth with a little fuel stabilizer/water remover each tank to prevent phase separation.

I will get some 4th gear logs this weekend to see how much load I'm hitting, and then set load caps 0.01 higher. Then I will start adding timing and see what happens. I will report back with my findings
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