Knocking during data logs

[Anubis450]

I recently flashed my car over, well I hoped into fine tunning my car, using Abitors tunning guide, but the tune I made I was experiencing a knock of 4.9 whenever I'd hop on the car, so I flashed it back to an ots Stage 2 tune but I'm still experiencing a knock, I was attempting to log my car last night to re-calibrate my mass airflow sensor, but in my logs I noticed the knock again, it was nowhere near as high as the knock on the tune I did before(where I calibrated my mass airflow sensor). Anyways, can anyone tell me possibly why my car is still knocking, even with an ots map? I noticed in my logs my bat's are high at some points, and I did my logs at 8 o'clock at night, so it wasn't extremely hot or anything.

My current mods are: Downpipe, test pipe, turbo inlet hose, cai and autotech cdfp internals.

[rfinkle2]

The highest amount of retard is 1.75, and occured @ low load. This is very common, especially on the gen1 cars.

[Anubis450]

So, when I did my fine tune though, I hit a retard of 4.0, as well, when I get home from work I could post a log of that, but what is excepted for retard I know you want values below 2.0, but if they're above 2.0 aren't they bad?

[Deldran]

Yes a log of the large knock would be good. also what are your mods?

[Anubis450]

I will post it when I get home, but my current mods are: catless downpipe, test pipe, cai and autotech cdfp internals

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Anubis450 So, when I did my fine tune though, I hit a retard of 4.0, as well, when I get home from work I could post a log of that, but what is excepted for retard I know you want values below 2.0, but if they're above 2.0 aren't they bad?

Not necassarily in low load conditions.

Thread here:

KR explained

[Anubis450]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Not necassarily in low load conditions. Thread here: KR explained

Yeah, I checked that out when I first noticed the knocking, I thought it was just my tune I did, but when I reflashed back to an OTS stage 2 map, I started seeing the knock again, here are two logs with big knock numbers,I'm not enteriely sure if this is a bent valve or something, or maybe just a noisy engine. Or maybe something more? I'm trying to not be a noob and have done some research, but I don't seem to have a consistent knock throughout my logs, I have noticed that when I shift, or hit a pretty hard bump, my KR goes up, I just am curious as to whether or not I should lay off of my tune for a bit and check my engine, or what.

[Anubis450]

Does anybody, have any idea, why its knocking at those levels, is it mechanical or just engine noise?

[btstarcher]

Huge logs are huge. You need to log a WOT log in 4th.

If you have access to e85, put 2 gallons of that in and then fill up with 93 octane. And use good gas. If it still knocks it's mechanical noise.

[Anubis450]

Originally Posted by btstarcher Huge logs are huge. You need to log a WOT log in 4th. If you have access to e85, put 2 gallons of that in and then fill up with 93 octane. And use good gas. If it still knocks it's mechanical noise.

I'll try that thanks for the input, but if it ends up being mechanical, should I just have a look at everything and is there anything I can do to help it?(assuming nothing is wrong mechanically).

[m4tic]

Originally Posted by btstarcher Huge logs are huge. You need to log a WOT log in 4th. . If it still knocks it's mechanical noise.

Or your couch is fucked.

[btstarcher]

Originally Posted by Anubis450 I'll try that thanks for the input, but if it ends up being mechanical, should I just have a look at everything and is there anything I can do to help it?(assuming nothing is wrong mechanically).

I had some knock issues while getting tuned. I put the 2 gallons e85 and still had knock. I took my TMIC off and re-tightened everything, especially the shroud. I also found that the loose end of the band clamp on my SRI was resting lightly against my HPFP, so I rotated that out of the way (it might have been tapping). Just tighten the fuck out of everything. Make sure nothing is loose. Also check your spark plugs, and make sure you're using the right plugs for your mods. Check the gap. Also, always use good fuel! Shell, Exxon, etc. None of that cheap shit.

[smoogs12]

Originally Posted by Anubis450 I'll try that thanks for the input, but if it ends up being mechanical, should I just have a look at everything and is there anything I can do to help it?(assuming nothing is wrong mechanically).

^^This post is rather confusing.

If you put a couple gallon of e85 in your tank and you still knock, chances are it is something hitting against the block.

If you put e85 in and your knock goes away, this means that your knock is most likely real, and you should get better gas and or run e85. Otherwise you could always pull timing or reduce boost in the areas that you are knocking.

You need to take WOT logs though (3rd or 4th gear from 2500-6000rpm), because as was stated before low load knock is not something to be concerned about. WOT knock on the other hand is something to look into.

[btstarcher]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. When I said "mechanical" I meant "mechanical noise," like a loose IC shroud, heatshield, etc.

[jack_hammer]

Originally Posted by m4tic Or your couch is fucked.

couch fucking is mechanical, isn't it?

mechanical can be bad injector seals as well as a loose TMIC shield.

[Anubis450]

Originally Posted by btstarcher I had some knock issues while getting tuned. I put the 2 gallons e85 and still had knock. I took my TMIC off and re-tightened everything, especially the shroud. I also found that the loose end of the band clamp on my SRI was resting lightly against my HPFP, so I rotated that out of the way (it might have been tapping). Just tighten the fuck out of everything. Make sure nothing is loose. Also check your spark plugs, and make sure you're using the right plugs for your mods. Check the gap. Also, always use good fuel! Shell, Exxon, etc. None of that cheap shit.

Thank you, I will try that and hopefully solves my problem, after adding my fuel pump internals last week, I'll check to make sure everything is tight enough, espicially the IC shroud, since I removed that to get better leverage on the Fuel Pump bolts.

Originally Posted by smoogs12 ^^This post is rather confusing. If you put a couple gallon of e85 in your tank and you still knock, chances are it is something hitting against the block. If you put e85 in and your knock goes away, this means that your knock is most likely real, and you should get better gas and or run e85. Otherwise you could always pull timing or reduce boost in the areas that you are knocking. You need to take WOT logs though (3rd or 4th gear from 2500-6000rpm), because as was stated before low load knock is not something to be concerned about. WOT knock on the other hand is something to look into.

That makes more sense about the logs, I was trying to see if I could notice anything that was making my car knock in the low loads since thats where I usually see it, but I have checked my WOT logs and they seem to be fine.

Originally Posted by btstarcher Sorry, I should have been more clear. When I said "mechanical" I meant "mechanical noise," like a loose IC shroud, heatshield, etc.

Thank you for clearing that up, I'm trying to not be a total noob, when it comes to this stuff.

[m4tic]

Originally Posted by broncojd78 couch fucking is mechanical, isn't it? mechanical can be bad injector seals as well as a loose TMIC shield.

I meant worst case hurt rods.

[Anubis450]

It seems to only knock high when I shift between first and second gear, I checked my ic, its tight, I don't have the IC shroud on my car anymore(stupid bolt broke), the only loose thing I can see in my engine is my CAI which I'm not sure if that could be the issue or not, when I installed my downpipe I had to loosen the lower and upper engine mount to raise my engine, I checked both the upper and lower mount bolts, they're good and torqued to the correct specs as well. On my way home from class I took two logs, from 3rd gear WOT and 4th gear WOT. I haven't tried the e85 gas yet, because I live in Utah and the closest station to me is in Orem,( I plan on doing that this weekend).

[snailD]

Originally Posted by Anubis450 It seems to only knock high when I shift between first and second gear, I checked my ic, its tight, I don't have the IC shroud on my car anymore(stupid bolt broke), the only loose thing I can see in my engine is my CAI which I'm not sure if that could be the issue or not, when I installed my downpipe I had to loosen the lower and upper engine mount to raise my engine, I checked both the upper and lower mount bolts, they're good and torqued to the correct specs as well. On my way home from class I took two logs, from 3rd gear WOT and 4th gear WOT. I haven't tried the e85 gas yet, because I live in Utah and the closest station to me is in Orem,( I plan on doing that this weekend).

where in utah? there are a shit load of good knowledgeable ppl in slc and orem area that could help you out and try to figure out your problem

as far as your knock is concerned it was hot as fuck in ur wot logs. and for knocking 1 degree with bats at 135 id say ur fine with the wot part of your tune, however, no offense, ur car is prob slow as shit at 14psi lol. as far as your pt knock is concerned, this seems to really only be an issue with gen1's. maybe it has to do with the piston design change for gen 2's but it seems like there is no way around it and just has to be accepted for the most part

[Anubis450]

Originally Posted by snailD where in utah? there are a shit load of good knowledgeable ppl in slc and orem area that could help you out and try to figure out your problem

In Buffdale, its right off of bangerter across from Riverton. So its located in SLC

[snailD]

get us a wot log from 2700rpms to redline. i want to see your boost and wgdc. if its stage 2 log you should be trying to hit 18psi or so and i only see 14psi, which is spring pressure, my stage 1 cobb map in utah held a solid 15.5 psi to redline. you could have something going on that you missed

[mituc]

Originally Posted by Anubis450 I have noticed that when I shift, or hit a pretty hard bump, my KR goes up, I just am curious as to whether or not I should lay off of my tune for a bit and check my engine, or what.

Mechanical. GO retighten the bolts in your engine bay, motor mounts, TMIC/TMIC shroud, hooses. I was getting KR up to like 2.3 because of the TMIC shroud which was rattling against the IM (there the knock sensor is), however, you don't seem to have an aftermarket TMIC so the issue may be a bit different, but I'm just saying.

[btstarcher]

Yeah the IC shroud is definitely a usual suspect when it comes to knock. In my case I was missing a washer, and the bolt holding it down wasn't tight enough. I'm on the stock TMIC.

Your knock doesn't seem bad at all in those two logs you posted, especially considering the heat. Between shifts you will probably see knock. Nothing to be concerned about. I would definitely check out why your boost is so low.

If I were you, I would definitely consider getting tuned by someone more knowledgeable here on the forums. Best money I ever spent. I was trying to do it myself, but it's alot to take in, and so much can go wrong. Some of these guides were written a long time ago. The information is good as a reference/learning tool, but some of it no longer applies, or has changed. The experts know what they're doing.

[Anubis450]

Originally Posted by btstarcher Yeah the IC shroud is definitely a usual suspect when it comes to knock. In my case I was missing a washer, and the bolt holding it down wasn't tight enough. I'm on the stock TMIC. Your knock doesn't seem bad at all in those two logs you posted, especially considering the heat. Between shifts you will probably see knock. Nothing to be concerned about. I would definitely check out why your boost is so low. If I were you, I would definitely consider getting tuned by someone more knowledgeable here on the forums. Best money I ever spent. I was trying to do it myself, but it's alot to take in, and so much can go wrong. Some of these guides were written a long time ago. The information is good as a reference/learning tool, but some of it no longer applies, or has changed. The experts know what they're doing.

I'm really considering having somone else on the forum do it, that is after I get find the culprit for my low boost, I have mine targeted to reach 18 psi, but I'm only hitting 15, I've changed my BOV spring to the strongest one, I also checked for any loose lines, but have yet to find any. So hopefully today when I get home from work I'll figure that out.

[jack_hammer]

did you ever add any octane booster or e85? if it only happens between shift, it's probably something hitting in the engine compartment, instead of being loose.

the engine moves around in there. do you have any upgraded mounts? what kind of car is this? miles on it? how long have you had it?

[Anubis450]

Originally Posted by broncojd78 did you ever add any octane booster or e85? if it only happens between shift, it's probably something hitting in the engine compartment, instead of being loose. the engine moves around in there. do you have any upgraded mounts? what kind of car is this? miles on it? how long have you had it?

I added the octane booster, I still was getting a little amount of knock, highest one was 2.1. I don't have any upgraded mounts at the moment, I re-checked to make sure all of my bolts were tight, from when I installed my downpipe. I have an 2006 ms6, with 72k miles on it, I've had it for a year and bought it at 60k.

[jack_hammer]

i'm not going to comment on your logs b/c i am not into tuning...
but here is the troubleshooting formula flow chart

you have knock
it is either mechanical or tune related

to determine if it is mechanical or tune related:
increase octane of fuel by either adding e85 or octane booster

if it still knocks, that would indicate mechanical problems
if it goes away, that would indicate tune related problems



another way you could do it, is to run a milder tune
if it still knocks, that would indicate mechanical problems
if it goes away, that would indicate tune related problems


during this entire process, you are only concerning yourself with WOT knock.

also, if it really only knocks at shifts, i would look at it being something related to your engine literally moving within the engine compartment. i would, at least, inspect the RMM, take pics of it, and post.

[Anubis450]

I just took 5 more logs of me in WOT, which seemed to have some pretty high knock ratings, but I noticed even as I'd accerelate the knock values would still go up, until I completly let off of the gas, any know whats going on? I know my BAT"s are high still, I'm waiting for my tigs to come in, to help with that, along with I'm waiting for my colder plugs to come in as well to help with knock, but I seemed to loose all knock this week until today(it has been hotter today, so I wonder if thats one issue as well).

[btstarcher]

That's some pretty high part-throttle knock...also in the 2nd log, it looks like you trimmed the beginning, unless you immediately jumped on the throttle at 3941 rpm. Which is weird, because the log should be from around 3k to redline. However it looks pretty lean to me at the beginning of that log. You really should just get someone to tune it before you blow your shit up.

[Black Metal]

Stop running your car hard until you get the new plugs in. Its 90+ today the heat definitely isn't helping.

[smoogs12]

Anubis450 Do you have access to e85?

[Anubis450]

Black Metal sounds good, I'm assuming that's the majority of the knock due to the past two nice days we have had.
smoogs12 yeah. I'm making a trip up to one of the cities this weekend that has e85 in it to pick up a vehicle for my brother so I planned on putting a gallon in when I was down there.

[btstarcher]

Have you did anything to your map since you started this thread? I remember one of the WOT logs had nothing significant except for when you shifted, which is normal. Now there's more.

[smoogs12]

I feel like a large part of this knock is due to the bats that you are seeing.

Your latest log is definitely a bit more disconcerting but meth/e85/living someplace that isnt so fucking hot should still solve the problem I would think.

That being said you should probably stop with the wot runs until you have a possible solution in place.

[GODspeed7]

If it isn't high ass BAT's like everyone is saying, I am going to say with the amount of miles on his car it could be leaking injector seals....?

[mituc]

The BAT's aren't that high. And the advance timing we see in these logs is far from being aggressive. The knock is constantly high under boost (WOT or high PT) so the injector seals may be one of the culprits.

[Anubis450]

Originally Posted by smoogs12 I feel like a large part of this knock is due to the bats that you are seeing. Your latest log is definitely a bit more disconcerting but meth/e85/living someplace that isnt so fucking hot should still solve the problem I would think. That being said you should probably stop with the wot runs until you have a possible solution in place.

Yeah, I seem to still knock in part throttle, I put in some injector cleaner last night and on my way to work, just driving nice their was a knock of 3.5 but went away when i got on the freeway, then for the rest of the drive, their was little knock below 2 in pt(it hit 2 once). I went a little into wot and their was no knock. I'm pretty sure the temperature yesterday had a big deal as to why, it was knocking. I'm just going to take it easy on my car until I get my plugs in, along with my JBR Tig's, egr delete and coolant bypass mod come in and I get them installed. Also when I find how to see if and injector seal is leaking, I'll check that and order the injector seal kit, if needed as well. Lesson learned don't drive my car like an idiot, until I get my hot BAT"s and knock issue resolved.

Originally Posted by GODspeed7 If it isn't high ass BAT's like everyone is saying, I am going to say with the amount of miles on his car it could be leaking injector seals....?

Originally Posted by mituc The BAT's aren't that high. And the advance timing we see in these logs is far from being aggressive. The knock is constantly high under boost (WOT or high PT) so the injector seals may be one of the culprits.

How, would I check to see if an injector seal is leaking?

[mituc]

You can't really check them unless you take the intake manifold off of your car and inspect them (you will see a lot of oil near the injectors with bad seals).
However, there are some symptoms that are common for this problem: ticking noise when going into boost, hesitation during acceleration, high knock with no explanation (like in your case), or all at the same time depending on how bad your injector seals are now.

If you add a gallon or so of E85 to a full tank of gas and the knock is still there most probably it;s something mechanical (and unless you have something loose into the engine bay that hits your IM most probably it's the seals).

[Anubis450]

Sounds, good I'll definately make sure to add the e85 tomorrow, to help eliminate what the issue may be, it disappeared for about a week or so, then it got Hotter here in Utah, and the knock issue began to show up again. If it ends up being an Injector seal, its a good thing that I have the EGR delete and TIG's to install which require the same removal. What is IM by the way?

[smoogs12]

Anubis450 IM=intake manifold.


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