Monitoring w/ AP
 

Hey whats up everyone. Im looking to see what are safe numbers while monitoring such as AFR, LTFT, Cal Load, or any other of importance at WOT and partial throttle.
I know about KR and DI Fuel Pressure.
I believe that AFR at WOT should be mid 11's and LTFT's should be +/- 8 and close to 0 at WOT. Fuel Pressure needs to be above 1300 psi at WOT.
I tried searching and have not found any basic list of what the engine parimeters should be with a stage 1 map.

Thanks in advance for any help.

My mods are Cobb intake, AP Stage 1 map.

I'm not sure about any answers but were you anywhere near 64th st. and McDowell yesterday? I saw a white ms3 there yesterday about 4:30.

I m all over the valley for work each day, but I don't think that was me. I was around Mcdowell but more towards the downtown area yesterday. Im always looking out for other Speed 3/6, but most people I see around town don't seem to be into modding there car.

Those #'s sound about right. Do you have any datalogs you can post up? It's a hobby for some of us to analyze them & let you know if anything's out of sorts. :)

Seems like there's a lot of us from the Phoenix metro area here, I'm curious to see what effect the heat has on your BAT/KR as well (it's made me de-tune my timing a bit).

I'm on stock tune and my knock was going crazy the last couple weeks when temps were 110+. Last few days I've had 0. BATs in mid 170s after a few traffic lights.

I haven't datalogged in a while but will try and get one done tonight and post it up.
I got back and fourth on stock map and AP stage 1 map, but since the newer 107 maps came out I have been using that. I have very minor KR, only if im driving for a while in this crazy heat and go WOT. When I had the stock map on with the triple digit heat I would see high KR, around 5-6 when I went WOT.
Thanks

Yeah I was the same way with the stock map. When the temps outside got above 105+, I would always get KR. Now that the weather has cooled down a little and I flashed the stage 1 map, getting almost no KR. At the most of 1.0-2.0 at WOT. I do still get a little partial throttle KR, but not as high.

Yeah I get the ridiculous BATs in the 170's too. If you're driving down the freeway what kind of intake temps do you see? Mine range from 155-175 depending if the AC is switched on.

Here's the timing I'm using now, originally based on the Cobb Stg-2 and tweaked to eliminate my KR. My only mod is the corksport SRI/TIP and this seems to have gotten rid of a lot of the KR I used to see. I usually get load values in the 140-160, with a few spikes to 170 if it's a cooler morning. I pretty much never go above 6k rpm, so it may not be 100% safe there:

Your AFRs sound fine but I've got mine tuned to 10.8 by redline just to keep things nice and safe. I don't need to squeeze every ounce of power out of the poor engine.

On my drive home today, which is 30 miles or so. The last couple of miles I went WOT in 2nd and 3rd. Got no KR and this is in 110 degree weather with AC on. With the stock map I would have had KR anywhere from 4 as high as 6.
I will still try and get the datalog done tonight and post it up.

This is with the stage 1 map? Cobb pulled quite a bit of timing (1-4 degrees) compared to stock from 3500-5500 rpm, and ~1.38+ load. The stage 2 pulls even more timing (0.5-1 degrees) compared to the stage 1 map.

That would explain why you get less knock, even though it's setup for more power.

Yeah im running the OTS stage 1 Cobb intake. I want to eventually go with the dp or tp and flash the stage 2 map on there, but I'm kind of worried about needing a fp also.
Do you think I need to be running step colder plugs with a stage 1 map. I will for sure go with colder plugs once I go stage 2. I only have 26k miles on the car and only a couple of thousand of that with AP maps.

Definitely not, keep the stock temperature plugs.

Yeah thats what I thought, just making sure.
thanks

No problem, I ran the colder plugs and didn't notice any improvements for stage 1. I do think the car used more gas and lost power. I upgraded to the NGK Laser Iridiums. Better now.

So I was going to datalog last night but it rained and the streets were almost flooded. I will get a log in tonight. Thanks for anyone who has helped

I work in Tempe near the 143 and University, and live out in Gilbert, though I lived in Tempe from 04-09. I see quite a few around town, but also don't see many with glaring mods/deeper exhaust. I looks pretty stock though except for having a murdered out body, but you can def hear the DP. Always see a white one headed east on the 60 around 7pm. [/threadjack]

The parameters your monitoring look good, but if your fuel pressure is dropping below 1600, it's time to upgrade. Your car will still run fine above 1300, but your loosing power and teetering on the edge.. IMO if you see dips at all it should be your next mod, for safety and the extra pressure. Also boost is an obvious one that you may just not have mentioned.. I'd stick to 18psi or less without exhaust mods. Fuckin AZ heat also..

Cool man, I lived in Gilbert for a couple of years and moved out to Tempe. Been out in Tempe since 2004. Im usually not on the 60 around that time. Im more on the 10 back and fourth from Phx and Tempe.
My fuel pressure is good, always in the 1600's^. I was just thinking anything under 1300 would be a good time to get a FP. That will be later with more mods.
My boost is usually around 16-18psi and tampers down, but when its cooler out I hit 19psi in 3rd sometimes.
Im with you fuck AZ summers, the rain has been a nice change.

datalog 8/1/2010
 

Here is a 2-3 pull that I datalogged tonight. The temps were 85 degrees. Im getting 3.5KR in second at 5300rpm and then again in third I get and 2.1 up to 3.1 at 4700-5800rpm. Also I noticed my AFR drops to the high 10's when Im getting the KR. Take a look at the log and let me know what you think and what I can do to fix this. I have no experience with AP ATR.
Thanks for anyone who chimes in.

i haz the knock retard too. Directly proportional to the heat and humidity. On those couple of rainy days, barely had any in the high 80's. In 105+ I'll see 3-4 knock retard. Thinking about running toluene in the summer months to keep retard at bay.

What were your BATs at during this log? If it was from last night then it was actually pseudo-cool outside, so that's a lot of KR for the reduced temps.

Not really enough data yet to make a 100% for sure suggestion, but the 2.8-3.15 would be cause for concern to me. I've grown more skeptical until I can get at least 7-8 pulls logged that show around the same KR in the same load/rpm. Once in awhile for no reason I'll get more KR for a single run (although usually into the mid 1's at most).

You need to add Calculated Load & BAT to your log options, and can probably take off STFT. It's hard to say why you're getting KR without the calculated load values, but your AFR looks okay at least. It's normal to go way rich when the ecu detects KR because it dumps fuel while pulling timing to try & save the motor.

Im pretty sure my BATs where around 128, but not 100% for sure. I will take a better log tonight and include the Cal load and BAT and post it up. Did everything else look good besides the KR in the upper rpms.
Thanks

Prob wouldn't hurt to add accel pedal position too.
Your wastegate duty cycle seems high, in the 80's/90's once boost is established. I'm only running in the 14-15 psi range right now, but I get about mid 50's once boost is established. That can indicate a boost leak (making the turbo work harder to overcome the leak = extra heat), but maybe it's normal. Hopefully someone else can comment.

Ok I will add the Accel Pedal position as well as BAT and Cal Load to the datalog tonight.
I thought my wastegate duty seemed high as well. Im new to the datalogging/tuning and know just the basics at this point. Still learning.
Yeah hopefully more people will take a look at the log and chime in.

I re-read your mods (well, mod) and with only an intake I would think the wastegate #'s should be a lot lower than that. Basically your engine has a lot of restrictions (stock intercooler, exhaust manifold, downpipe, cats) which means to create 17-18psi of restriction should be pretty easy for the turbo. Full aftermarket boltons means it's easier to flow air, so the turbo would have to work a lot harder to build up 18psi of restriction.

That being said, it probably would be a good idea to double check your hot-side connections to/from the turbo/intercooler, and intercooler/intake manifold to be sure they're snugly fastened and not leaking. You can also build a pretty simple leak tester for like $15-20 if you have an air compressor (google it for more details).

Thanks man for the feed back, I will double check everything tonight. I'm pretty sure everything is on super tight, I haven't messed with anything in a while. Only thing I have changed is my BPV, I had the Greddy BOV on for a while and took it off for the stock one when I flashed the 1.07 map on.
The leak test sounds great, but I don't have an air compressor, future item to get.
I will post up shortly what I find regarding a leak and once it drops temps a little I will put up a datalog with 2-4 gear pull.

Datalog #2 8/2/2010
 

So I did another datalog tonight. Temps were hot, around 96 degrees, but felt cooler. Im still getting KR, this time it went as high as 4.9KR at 5592 rpm in third. What was crazy is that my AP showed no KR at all while monitoring in my car, 0.0KR.
In the car everything felt great, pulled hard to 6k rpm.
Here's the datalog, what can I do to get rid of this damn KR or is it just due to the heat.
thanks in advance

It's the heat, the only way to beat it is bring down your timing, meth, or get your hands on some homebrew octane booster, or mix race gas.

Motherfucker! Wtf. Hottest god damn state and the worst fucking gas.

Thats what I was thinking. The damn AZ heat is the worse on a turbo. I've had other turbo vehicles, but they never had such issues with heat and knock before.
I may look into getting the timing adjusted or just take it easy on the car until the end of the summer.

Im with you fuck the AZ summers. I have lived in AZ pretty much my whole life but never get used to the summer, unbearable at times. Plus we do have the worse gas, piss 91 octane. I would love to be able to use some 93 octane.

What gas stations do you guys go to? I try to hit a Shell and stay far away from Circle K's.

I stay away from circle k and other stations like it. I only use shell, chevron, and mobile when I can find it.

AP display probably doesn't show the KR because it doesn't refresh quickly enough vs the logged values.

It looks like you're right in the same area where I've had to pull timing, only a little higher in load values. The map I'm running now for about a week with nothing consistently over 0.7 KR even in the daytime heat we've had. Something strange is your BATs are way down in the 115 range, with it running that cool I wouldn't think the heat would affect you much/at all. Just this morning I was running BATs in the mid 140's with 0.3 or less KR.

Also your wastegate % still seems really high to me. Have you tried going through with a socket wrench & re-tightening the clamps? Just be careful not to strip the screw, but I can never get it tight enough with just a screwdriver.

Something I just thought of: How long had your car been running before this datalog? If you're running the stock intercooler the only way I could see it being that cool is if it hasn't warmed up fully yet. A few others have mentioned getting a lot of KR until 4-5 minutes after the coolant has gotten to 190.

It's definitely not the heat, 115 BAT isn't bad at all. My BAT is usually in the 120 - 130 range and I rarely get knock over .7.

I thought my BAT's looked low as well, which should help with the KR, but didn't.
I didn't get a chance to go over everything looking for leaks, but for sure tonight I will.
I let the car warm up for 5 mins before I even started driving, then I did a couple of miles before doing the datalog last night. Wasn't sure of the coolant temps.
What do you think is my best option on reducing the KR, should I try a map such as the stage 1-no intake, have the timing pulled out a little, or just take it easy over the summer until it cools down. I don't beat on the car on a regular, but enjoy some hard pulls now and then, that's the reason I got the car. I just want the peace of mind knowing I won't blow the motor, with the KR I have been getting.
Thanks for any advice

Ok if it is not the BAT causing the KR, do you have any other ideas of what is causing this high of KR. I have no idea what Im doing with the ATR and do not want to mess up anything, so I have not messed around with it. I need someone to protune it or get some help with a custom map. I would rather wait for the protune until I have all my mods I want on the car.

That sounds really odd for your BATs to be that low when mine doing the same thing will be in the 120's-130's once fully warm in basically the same location (Gilbert). My solution has been/is to pull timing in the areas where KR consistently shows. I'm happy enough with my current tune on stage-1 load values to start upping the boost, but I'm taking a road trip this week so I'd rather not mess with it until I get back.

Not getting into boost because of KR would be a major downer, especially since you have the tools (AP) to handle it. I'm curious why your boost/load values are higher than mine if you're running the same stage-1+SF load values I am. Maybe because your LTFT is tending towards the lean side (+ numbers) where mine tends slightly towards the rich side (- numbers). Or maybe there is a boost leak someplace and that's playing havok with your load targets.
If you can get your load #'s down a little bit you could try my timing map. Or if you don't mind waiting a week or two I'm planning on tuning into the psi/load values you're seeing now with basically the same intake-only mod, and you could try my timing results then.

Maybe try logging a few pulls after driving the car for 10-15 minutes first would help too, I have a feeling it might not be 100% warmed up.

Take out the MAF airflow from your datalog to increase the sample rate.

If I understand correctly, you are running the Stage 1 + SF 91 octane map with no changes? If there are changes, post up your map.

Yeah its crazy how to cars in the same area with same map can have such different numbers. Im not sure how to get my load numbers down, any suggestions.
That would be awesome if I could try out your map, I have no problem waiting a couple of weeks. In the mean time I will check for leaks and try different things to get rid of the KR.
Would't my STFT/LTFT be off if I had a leak? Not sure though
I will get another datalog tonight, this time I will drive around more before doing the datalog.
You are probably right on not being 100% warmed up, because my bats are usually around 125-130. Which is crazy because it was running for at least 10 mins before I did the datalog.
Thanks man

Yeah you are correct on the map, Stage 1+ SF on 91 octane 1.07 version. Only mods on the car right now are AP and Cobb intake. Do you think if I calibrate my MAF that would help. I have read other threads on how to calibrate MAF, but Im confused if this will even help with the KR. It seems to only help getting STFT/LTFT down. MAF airflow will be taken out tonight on the datalog. Should have another log tonight once it cools down a little.

you definitely need to calibrate your MAF since you have an aftermarket intake. you will probably experience slightly lower boost after calibrating. this is normal. after calibrating you will need to adjust your gear based load values to get your boost back up to where you want it. do you have ATR yet?

No I don't have ATR yet, Im kind of worried about messing something up.
I started reading a little on the manual for the ATR but feel it is a little confusing still.
Im not a noob with modding cars but never got into tuning until this car, I had my previous two cars protuned.

The +SF map already comes calibrated for the Cobb intake. It won't be perfect but should be close enough.

Get ATR, you may be able to use it to resolve your issue.

I do agree with the other poster about the high wastegate, something wrong there.

chevron, there's a shell station right by me, but it seems that their 91 is like 89.

SO last night I went over all my hoses for leaks. Everything seemed ok, I did notice that my hot side and cold side pipes the clamps were a little loose. So I tighted everything up super tight. Hopefully that is what the leak was. I didn't get a chance to datalog again last night. It was still around 105 degrees at 9pm. I can't wait for the summer to get over and start really enjoying my car again.

The issue can also be the by-pass valve, are you running the stock one? Maybe it's leaking.

I had the Greddy BOV on for a while but have taken off and replaced with stock when I flashed the 1.07 map on. I even put a gasket on with the stock BPV to help prevent any leaking. Also I made sure to check my lines on the BPV and tighten everything back down.
At this point not sure what could be causing such high wastegate duty.
I will get another datalog tonight and see if this helped any.

Build a boost leak tester for a few bucks. Easiest way to confirm.

I've been wanting to build one but I believe you need an air compressor for it and I do not have one. If there are other ways of doing it can you link me in the right direction.
thanks

I'm not sure of any other way to pressurize the system outside of a compressor. Harbor Freight has smaller ones on the cheap though that will do the job. Handy to have to fill your own tires, instead of spending a buck at the gas station. Also at some point you'll be ready for air tools.

1/4 HP, 3 Gallon, 100 PSI Oil Free Compressor
1/3 HP, 3 Gallon, 100 PSI Oilless Air Compressor