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-   -   "Standback Tuning For Dummies Guide" The Official Q&A... (http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f9/standback-tuning-dummies-guide-official-q-14296/)

AutoXRacer 10-31-2008 06:54 AM

"Standback Tuning For Dummies Guide" The Official Q&A...
 
So I purchased a Standback and now I want to know how to tune it...

This thread will serve as a tool to help you learn the basics in tuning your Standback; we will walk you through every step of the tuning process to help you get your desired results.

I will be posting a data log and you'll be able to follow the whole procedure on how to take the information from the data log, figure out what needs to be changed, translate that into the Standback tables-while understanding what the changes will do-to get desired results.

Stay tuned...

oskinosmee 10-31-2008 06:58 AM

LOL good shit this should become a sticky

gsrtype1 10-31-2008 07:09 AM

Good idea for a thread!

www.cp-e.com 10-31-2008 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoXRacer (Post 99956)
So I purchased a Standback and now I want to know how to tune it...

This thread will serve as a tool to help you learn the basics in tuning your Standback; we will walk you through every step of the tuning process to help you get your desired results.

I will be posting a data log and you'll be able to follow the whole procedure on how to take the information from the data log, figure out what needs to be changed, translate that into the Standback tables-while understanding what the changes will do-to get desired results.

Stay tuned...

Thanks for starting this thread!! :woohoo:

My aim is to give a general overview as to how the Standback is tuned, and if you guys have questions about the programmer or some function that you'd like to apply to your car please post the question up because others out there may have the same question.

I think one of the most important things to wrap your head around is that because we're using an interceptor style tuner, all of the changes we're making are relative to the factory tables. In other words, the changes we make to fueling or ignition are relative to stock. So if the tables in the Standback are zero'd out, then we're not making changes to the factory programming, and the fueling and timing will be stock. So let's talk about making changes.

Fueling.

Since all of our changes are relative to stock, we're just going to make slight changes. When you plug in the Standback if the car is running lean, then we'll obviously want to add fuel. So, start the Standback programmer and open the primary MAF table:

http://www.cp-e.com/imgs/fueling.JPG

So what we're looking at is the primary fueling table. You have engine RPM on the y-axis, and your dependent variable at the top. Right now we have TPS (throttle position voltage) selected, but you may choose between TPS, MAP, or MAF voltage. Now, since we have throttle position selected, 0-volts (far left side of the table) would represent a closed throttle, and 5-volts would be wide open. So what we're trying to accomplish here is set up conditions as to when we should add or remove fuel.

Since the Standback is transparent to the ECU, we limit our changes only to wide open throttle, or heavy throttle inputs. So we'll want to concentrate on the right side of the table. As you can see, you may isolate fueling changes to discrete regions in the table. For instance, if you want to add fuel at 5000rpm and only under heavy throtle, then you'll want to populate the cell that corresponds to 5-volts (really ~4.35-volts for these cars) and 5000rpm. See below:

http://www.cp-e.com/imgs/fueling1.JPG

But how do we know how much fuel to add or remove? You really just have to start small and see how the vehicle reacts to the change. The numbers you program into the table are just scalars, so for instance if you put a "5" in any of the cells, the Standback will multiply the incoming MAF voltage by 5%, and then send the new cooked signal to the ECU. So what does a typical fueling map look like?

http://www.cp-e.com/imgs/fueling2.JPG

Now this map will be different for each application, but this at least gives you some idea of the kinds of numbers you'll be putting into each cell. As you can see, the tuner removed fuel in the high throttle regions from about 3000rpm onto redline.


Timing.

Timing is similar to MAF scaling, but instead of using a scalar, we're literally adding or removing ignition advance from the factory ignition advance. So if you put a "1" in any of the timing table cells, you'll be adding 1° of ignition advance. -1 will retard the ignition one 1°. Again, you can change the dependent axis if you don't like using the default TPS variable.

http://www.cp-e.com/imgs/timing.JPG



This will be a good start, and I'm hoping this will generate some questions. When I have some more time today I'll add more to this post. And AutoX, I'll look forward to your post :headbang:

oskinosmee 10-31-2008 08:43 AM

I figured out timing and boost it was the fuel that had me confused. Now Jordan how about vta because the map I got my car acted stupid with? BTW this is Steve

www.cp-e.com 10-31-2008 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oskinosmee (Post 100001)
I figured out timing and boost it was the fuel that had me confused. Now Jordan how about vta because the map I got my car acted stupid with? BTW this is Steve

Hey Steve! I'm not sure if it was the VTA that made your car act funny (edit: on second look, it was the VTA!). I also pulled some timing because I wasn't sure where you were registering knock. But what I'll do is tweak your tune some more and send you another copy today. If the car still acts funny I may need you to give me a call.

To answer your question about VTA, here's a quick guide I wrote but never got around to publishing:


Quote:

The cp-e™ Standback engine management system has the capability to allow users to vent their blow-off valves to the atmosphere without the associated backfires or rich conditions one would expect on a MAF sensor equipped vehicle. But why do cars run rich when you vent a blow-off valve?

The blow-off valve is mounted after the mass air meter. So in order for air to pass through the blow-off valve, the air must first flow past the mass air meter. That means when the blow-off valve opens, the mass air meter is reading air that the engine never ingests. You can liken this to a large boost leak between shifts, and the result is a dangerously rich mixture. When people vent their blow-off valves to the atmosphere without any engine management to correct the condition, they get backfires between shifts, they wash the cylinder walls with fuel, they foul their injectors, and they can seriously damage the vehicle’s emissions system.

The Standback can prevent these problems associated with venting a blow-off valve to the atmosphere by simply lying to the computer about how much air is being vented when the throttle is shut. When the blow-off valve opens the MAF voltage is high because the turbo is pushing air through the system at a high rate. When this happens, the Standback intercepts the MAF signal, and then scales it down so that the car doesn’t inject as much fuel. The result is a more appropriate mixture during shifts, which helps to prevent many of the problems associated with venting to atmosphere (VTA).

We can tune the Standback to vent a blow-off valve to atmosphere by setting certain conditions when fuel flow should be intentionally cut. We only want fuel to be cut when the throttle plate snaps shut, and really only when a large amount of air is being circulated. But how do we set these conditions to only vent when necessary, and avoid cutting fuel inadvertently?

Consider the scenario: When your foot is to the floor, you’re creating boost, and then you let off the gas. When the throttle plate closes the engine is trying to suck air past the closed throttle plate. Two things happen: The throttle position approaches zero volts (~0.65-volts), and engine vacuum increases. So we can use these two conditions to signal when the Standback should cut fuel.

Tuning the Standback to vent to atmosphere can be accomplished using the “Fuel Cut Settings” field in the Standback programmer. The best way to accomplish tuning the unit is to start with the base map that we provide (please call us for a copy, 301-576-6142). Drive the car and take notice of any inadvertent fuel cuts. An inadvertent fuel cut will feel like a total loss of power, but if you floor the accelerator fuel flow will be restored. Now, if you don’t get any inadvertent fuel cuts, then you can continue enjoying the VTA function. If you do get inadvertent fuel cuts, there are some settings you may adjust to better suit your particular vehicle.


The options are as follows:

Fuel Restore TPS – This is the throttle voltage (read: position) required in order to terminate the fuel cut condition

Example: If fuel cut has been triggered, you need to exceed throttle position voltage “x” in order to restore fuel flow. The idea is that following an intentional fuel cut, fuel flow should be restored once you get back on the throttle. So this setting should be only slightly higher then the throttle’s idle position, and 1-volt is a good starting point.

Fuel Restore RPM’s – The fuel cut will terminate at this engine RPM.

Example: After you shift your engine speed will naturally drop. If the end-user doesn’t get back on the throttle then the car will continue cutting fuel and the engine will stall. So, you can command a minimum engine speed to prevent this issue. This value should be just above the vehicle idle speed, and 1000rpm is a good starting point.

Fuel Cut Volts – When the fuel cut is triggered, this is the default MAF voltage the Standback will send to the computer.

Example: If you enter “1-volt” as the fuel cut voltage, then the Standback will send the ECU a 1-volt MAF signal whenever the fuel cut function is triggered. This value only needs to be relatively low, and 1-volt is a good default value.

Minimum Map Fuel Cut Enable – The fuel cut can only be triggered if the engine vacuum is below this threshold (measured in pressure *NOT* vacuum!).

Example: Because blow-off valves use both pressure and vacuum to open the relief valve, we can tell the Standback to only cut fuel when vacuum is high (i.e. engine spinning at high speed and is fighting against the throttle plate). If you enter “-9” then the Standback will not cut fuel until engine vacuum exceeds -9psi as indicated in the Standback logs.

AutoXRacer 10-31-2008 10:56 AM

OK, so regarding MAF and Timing tables... Why would one modify/adjust these...?

Am I correct to assume that if you want to adjust your AFRs, then you modify the MAF table, while if you are getting Knock, then you adjust the Timing tables?

Basically, how do you know when to adjust/mody the Timing table?
Do you only adjust the Timing table when you get Knock?

***Edited 2:17pm:***

What PIDs should we be logging? I know Laloosh uses the following:

-RPM
-AFR from sensor
-Timing Advance
-Knock Retard
-Boosted Air Temp

I understand all the PIDs except for the Boosted Air Temp. What does that tell you?

Haltech 10-31-2008 12:17 PM

If you guys like, i can do a PDF for it as well that will sit attached on the first post. Just let me know when you have everything posted and ill extract it.

www.cp-e.com 10-31-2008 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoXRacer (Post 100074)
OK, so regarding MAF and Timing tables... Why would one modify/adjust these...?

Am I correct to assume that if you want to adjust your AFRs, then you modify the MAF table, while if you are getting Knock, then you adjust the Timing tables?

That's exactly right.

Yep, we're scaling the voltage from the MAF sensor in order to adjust fueling. What we're essentially doing is lying to the car about how much air the engine is processing. So for instance when you "add fuel," we're basically lying to the computer and telling it that we're getting more air than we actually are. So we scale the voltage "up" which increases fuel delivery. So we're just tricking the car into injecting more fuel, and we use the MAF sensor to accomplish that.

Although knock can be affected by many variables, timing is most closely coupled to knock. Ignition timing dictates when the plug fires, and typically it'll fire just before the piston reaches top dead center on the compression stroke. As you can imagine, if you start the combustion event too early then the piston will be trying to compress an expanding air/fuel mixture. If the event starts early enough the pressure in the cylinder gets really high, and the air/fuel mixture burns uncontrollably and auto-ignites. This is what we want to avoid. The game here is to balance how much cylinder pressure we run. Cylinder pressure increases the most with boost and timing increases.


Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoXRacer (Post 100074)
Basically, how do you know when to adjust/mody the Timing table?
Do you only adjust the Timing table when you get Knock?

The reason why timing is so tricky to tune is because it isn't the only factor that affects knock, and the tuner needs to understand minimum best timing, and that more timing isn't necessarily better even if there is no knock present. Typically when I'm doing tuning off of the dyno I stick to removing timing in critical regions, which I'd be happy to discuss.


Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoXRacer (Post 100074)
***Edited 2:17pm:***

What PIDs should we be logging? I know Laloosh uses the following:

-RPM
-AFR from sensor
-Timing Advance
-Knock Retard
-Boosted Air Temp

I understand all the PIDs except for the Boosted Air Temp. What does that tell you?

RPM- We need to know this to understand "when" we're making changes.

AFR - Good feedback for air/fuel tuning. Gives some indication as to how much fuel should be added/removed.

Timing Advance - Timing advance tells a lot about how the car is running. Low timing advance (before tuning) could indicate that there's a problem, and that the ECU is pulling timing for some reason. It's also important to have some indication as to how much advance the engine is running.

Knock Retard - The more knock retard the ECU registers, the more knock there is. The amount of timing the ECU pulls in response to knock is proportional to the knock event. You can use the KR to indicate how hot (or poor) a tune is.

BAT - This one isn't as important, but it can help explain weird knock events, or issues with the turbocharger.

SgtP 10-31-2008 12:30 PM

great info!!

AutoXRacer 10-31-2008 03:30 PM

Here are 3 runs/log I did while driving home from work... Let the brain storming begin.

Run #1 was done in 5th gear... I don't know why I did it in 5th, but I was curious to see what it would look like.

Notes: Max Knock Retard: 1.8 (I don't know why DashHawk does not display the 5th Y-axis column; anyone know how to display it?)

Direct Link: Run 1 5th Gear

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f1...un15thgear.jpg

Run #2 done in 4th gear...
Notes: Max Knock Retard: 1.1

Direct Link: Run 2 4th Gear

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f1...un24thgear.jpg

Run #3 done in 4th gear...
Notes: Max Knock Retard: 1.8

Direct Link: Run 3 4th Gear

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f1...un34thgear.jpg

One observation I have done is that it makes my AFRs too long to reach 12s...

So, what AFRs should we shoot for? Safe tune? Extreme tune?
What about timing? How do I know where to set it?

phillyb 11-03-2008 12:23 AM

this is a great thread. i will be watching

www.cp-e.com 11-03-2008 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoXRacer (Post 100210)
So, what AFRs should we shoot for? Safe tune? Extreme tune?
What about timing? How do I know where to set it?

Gerald, I haven't forgotten about you! I will comment on your tune tomorrow AM!



Here's some information on PID boost control tuning. I wrote this a while ago and never got around to formatting it and putting it on the website, so I figure that I might as well post


PID Tuning

The cp-e™ Standback uses a true PID (Proportional, Integral, Derivative) feedback loop in order to regulate boost pressure. Many customers have requested some information on PID tuning, and this guide is meant to point the needy in the right direction.

What is a feedback loop?

The best example (that I can think of) of a feedback loop is a toaster oven. The toaster oven is meant to warm up food, but too hot and the food burns, too cold and it’ll never cook. In order to target a specific temperature, the machine must have some feedback as to what the actual temperature is. As such, a thermocouple is placed in the toaster oven, and when a specified value is reached the heating element turns on or off. The thermocouple provides the feedback the oven needs in order to determine when to turn the heating elements on or off.

How about a PID feedback loop?

Let’s continue with the toaster oven example. In the case of the toaster, we used what is basically a thermal switch to turn the heating elements either on or off. Of course, this doesn’t give very fine control of the temperature, but then again fine control really isn’t needed in a toaster. But if we did need to very finely control the temperature in the oven?

PID control uses the history of some process in order to make an “educated guess” as to the controllers next action. If we were to plot a normal toaster oven’s duty over time, it may look something like this:


Notice that as we clearly overshoot our critical temperature of 400°F. This is because the heating element doesn’t shut off until we reach our set point.

PID feedback control looks at the control process and uses math to guess when to shut off the heating element in order to prevent overshoot and precisely maintain our target temperature. The control loop uses three functions in order to determine which action to take:

Where:

kpe(t) = Instantaneous error
kie(t) = Error summed over time
k de(t) = Slope of process

Each of these factors provide some feedback to the controller, and we can use these inputs in order to better regulate our process. Let’s take a look:

kpe(t)


You can think of this term as your instantaneous error, which is defined as your setpoint minus the process value (this is technically not correct, but works for our intents and purposes). As the magnitude (size of the number; positive or negative) of the error grows, so does this terms weight on the action taken by the controller. This term is basically the gain of the system.

kie(t)


If you could “add up” the area between our setpoint and the actual process over time, then this would be our ki term. It is meant to direct the process in the right direction when it is consistently above or below the target over time.

k de(t)


This value quantifies the instantaneous “slope” of the process. The greater the magnitude of the slope, the greater affect this term has on the controller. This term can help dampen out oscillations, or create them depending on the PID tuning.

And what’s the result of good PID control on our hypothetical toaster oven?


Notice that the overshoot is almost gone, and the oscillation above and below our setpoint is much smaller. Surprisingly, the jump from a toaster oven to boost control isn’t a very big leap. Instead of using heating elements to control temperature, we’re using a solenoid to control the change in pressure at the wastegate. So although the two processes are very similar, the response time and tolerance for error with the boost control is much much lower!

Below is a datalog taken from a customer that didn’t have his boost well optimized, but we can use it to critique:


1. The first thing to notice is the overshoot. This is a perfect example of the need for either more kd, or less kp. What’s happening here is that the controller is closing the wastegate solenoid (which opens the wastegate) too late and the turbo doesn’t spin down soon enough. The result is a pressure spike. As you can imagine, slowing the process down would help, but most people want their turbo spooled up as quickly as possible. So a reasonable suggestion here would be to add more weight to kd. Since the slope is very high as we reach the process setpoint, a higher kd value will help reduce the spiking.
2. Notice here that despite our being set to 15psi we never really settle there. That’s an indication that our ki value is set too low. If we were to increase ki, then the summed error over time would have more of an effect on the system, which would open the wastegate slightly in order to bring boost back down to the 15psi setpoint.
3. This last marker is just to indicate the role of the kp value. Kp can be thought of as the gain of the system, and you can increase or decrease the response time by adjusting this parameter. However, keep in mind that more is not necessarily better!

A Comment on (In)stability

Any PID tuner must be aware that these systems are far from foolproof! If the weights of each coefficient is too high then you can create a condition where the process becomes unstable. The result is usually an oscillation in the boost control, but if it gets bad enough then you risk damaging something, so be very careful when making changes to the PID coefficients. Make small changes to begin with until you get an idea of how each coefficient affects the process.

bf360 11-03-2008 06:25 PM

subd

jmhinkle 11-03-2008 09:37 PM

Very nicely done with the PID explanation. All our temp/humity controllers at work have PID settings so I'm quite familiar with it, but this should help those who have no idea what it is quite a bit.

And since my Standback is on the way, is there a list of those people that are available/willing to help with tunes.

www.cp-e.com 11-04-2008 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoXRacer (Post 100210)
Here are 3 runs/log I did while driving home from work... Let the brain storming begin.

Run #1 was done in 5th gear... I don't know why I did it in 5th, but I was curious to see what it would look like.

Notes: Max Knock Retard: 1.8 (I don't know why DashHawk does not display the 5th Y-axis column; anyone know how to display it?)


One observation I have done is that it makes my AFRs too long to reach 12s...

So, what AFRs should we shoot for? Safe tune? Extreme tune?
What about timing? How do I know where to set it?

Actually those don't look half bad, and the newer one you sent me looks even better. There are a couple issues to address here...

First, yes, it does take the car a long time to transition to a rich(er) mixture when you first start generating boost, and this is part of the reason why I pull timing in that region. As you'll notice the car already pulls a lot timing there, but if we're upping boost beyond factory levels then it isn't a bad idea to pull more timing out. I usually yank between one and two degrees from that area if boost is above ~15psi.

How do you correct for this lean spot? Well, we're working on a flash that changes the ECU's target mixture at lower RPM's. Mazda likely kept the mixture lean at least initially because it isn't uncommon for these small turbo cars to generate boost just puttering around town. As you can imagine, if the ECU richened the mixture up every time the driver got into some sort of boost, fuel mileage would drop and emissions (by and large) would increase. This chart below illustrates which pollutants are affected by a non-stoich mixture (notice carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons both decrease as the mixture leans out):

http://www.cp-e.com/imgs/pollution.JPG

Until we get the flash ready there are some options. Some folks add fuel in that area using the MAF tables. Now, this works to some degree, and basically what you're doing at that point is capitalizing on the ECU's response time to fueling changes. We're essentially jacking up the MAF voltage which increases fuel demand. The ECU will temporarily add fuel until it sees that it's straying from it's intended target, at which point it will begin pulling fuel out to compensate. I don't prefer this approach though to be candid.

The best fix that we've found that's currently available is water/meth. Our water/meth customers are tuning their srpay to come on with boost pressure, and this drops the AFR immediately, and the ECU can't trim fuel out fast enough, so you get the mixture you intend to see.

I have another option that I'd like to try, and it has to do with manipulating fuel pressure with the Standback programmer. I've got a map and no one to try it out for me, lol! But what I've done is commanded fuel pressure to rise when boost is between 3-16psi in the ranges of 2000-4000rpm. The fuel pump has a feedback loop attached to it just as the air/fuel control does, but I don't think the pump will respond as quickly as the closed-loop fuel control does. So my thinking is that we can bump pressure up gradually as boost pressure rises. I don't know if this will be a proper solution, but I'd like to give it a try sometime. I can post a picture of the map I whipped up if anyone else wants to try it too.

The KR seems pretty consistent, which is convenient. I'd slowly start removing timing from that region and see if that helps quell the knock. Remember, if your air/fuel ratio is solid, then increasing fuel is not a smart way to quell knock.

Gerald, you also commented that your boost isn't holding very well with the factory PID parameters, so let's see if we can tweak them to improve how well you hold your boost target.

You said in your email that you have the controller set to 18psi, and it gets up there, but then beings to taper down almost immediately. If you look back at the PID explanation above, it sounds like you need to increase the ki term. I know this because you're consistently below your boost target, and that means the i-term doesn't carry enough weight to close the wastegate under those conditions. So you might try raising your ki term from 0.09 to maybe 0.2. The ki term will also add to the "urgency" when yopur boost is building so you might need to compensate by adding a little more kd. So you might leave your kp term at 30, and then bring your kd up to maybe 150. Try that and see if you can hold boost better.


Quote:

Originally Posted by jmhinkle (Post 101349)
Very nicely done with the PID explanation. All our temp/humity controllers at work have PID settings so I'm quite familiar with it, but this should help those who have no idea what it is quite a bit.

And since my Standback is on the way, is there a list of those people that are available/willing to help with tunes.


Thanks! That's actually how I got introduced to PID controllers. I was a guest researcher at the National Institute of Standards and Technology, and I worked in the thermometer calibration lab. All of the calibration baths (I worked in low-temperature measurement) has PID loops controlling their temperature, and I had no idea that a few years later I'd be controlling turbos using the same technology. How cool is that?!

I'm not sure if you ever received my email, but I'd like to work directly with you in tuning your application remotely. If you'd like to talk about getting your car dialed in you're welcome to call (301-576-6142) or email me (jgartenhaus@cp-e.com) anytime.

SgtP 11-04-2008 11:36 AM

that explains a lot. ty for that Jordan.

Hypnotized 11-04-2008 12:10 PM

sub, excellent info!

gsrtype1 11-04-2008 12:11 PM

Awsome stuff! Jordan is our tuneing GURU!!

www.cp-e.com 11-04-2008 12:20 PM

:friday:

I'm really glad that you guys are finding this information useful! If you all have any other questions about the programmer please post them up, otherwise I'll keep posting comments that I feel are pertinent to this discussion.

AutoXRacer 11-04-2008 12:29 PM

Thanks for all the info Jordan...:top: Keep it coming!!!:D

As you all read, I've already started playing around/tuning my car...which means I am now a little ahead of this thread.

Here is what I've done so far... First let me say you can't tune without a DashHawk or some sort of data logging device!! And make sure to let your LTFT (long term fuel trims) settle a bit (after installing the Standback) before loading a map and letting her rip!!

You need to log RPM, AFR, Timing ADV, KR (knock retard), and Fuel Pressure.

So I took a base map Jordan sent me.

MAF
Direct Link: Jordan's Tune MAF

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f1...anBaseTune.jpg

If you noticed above in Jordan’s base tune map, the changes start in the middle of the table and are pretty much concentrated in the lower right hand quadrant of the table. That is because that’s where WOT is. The Y-axis is RPM and the X-axis is the Throttle Position Sensor Voltage (TPS); 0.0 is idle while 5.0 is WOT. According to Jordan, the MS3 WOT is more in the 4.5 or so volt range.

TIMING
Direct Link: Jordan's Tune Timing

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f1...TuneTiming.jpg

I loaded it into the Standback (from now on I'll be using the acronym SB) and took a drive. Started slow to make sure everything was fine; AFRs and knock (KR). Once I verified everything was OK, I started data logging. I did runs in 4th gear starting at 3,000 RPM.

Direct Link: Data Log

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f1...0-30-08vG1.jpg

I studied the data log and concentrated on AFRs first; I was aiming for an 11.50 AFR. So, I took what Jordan gave me and started doing small incremental changes to the MAF Table; 0.5 to 1 values to start off with. I looked the RPM vs AFR and started making changes. Where the curve needed to go down (richer) towards the 11.50 AFR range I added 1 (if I was in the 13 AFR range) to what Jordan had on his base map, if I was in the high 12 AFR range, then I added 0.5 to Jordan’s tune; small incremental changes until you learn how your car reacts. Now, for the AFRs that were richer than 11.50, I needed to remove fuel (lean it out), again I just started with -0.5 and -1 incremental changes depending how far I was from 11.50. All I did was follow the AFR curve and when it was out of my spec (11.50 AFR), I’d look to see what the corresponding RPM was and made the correlating change in the SB MAF table. Its simple as that, you just have to get through the fear of blowing up your engine. 0.5 and 1 point changes are so small that the changes will not cause harm...

Once I finished that… I saved my new tune under a new file name and named it v1 (v1, v2, v3, etc…). Loaded it into the SB, went for a drive, and data logged again. Same thing, 3,000 RPM WOT 4th gear pull till fuel cut. And started the whole procedure again… Study the AFR/RPM curve and make changes accordingly to the tune. Again, a negative number will decrease fuel while a positive number adds fuel. Do that until your desired AFR curve looks good. I got mine in about 3 iterations.

Next what I need to tackle is timing. I am still unsure how to do this, though Jordan has already explained it to me… Since I am not getting knock with my current tune, which is pretty much stock timing, I am not too worried about it. I’m just using what Jordan sent me. I just decreased/increased it (making it closer to zero-stock) because I am running 2 step colder plugs. Otherwise, just use what Jordan has.

In addition, I am just starting to play around with boost. There are two ways to set boost in the SB. In the configuration page, you can set the SB to a fix value or enable the use of a boost table which allows you to set boost vs RPM. In case you want to tune for a progressive boost curve. Since our turbos are so small and like to boost instantly, you can set it using the boost table to incrementally build boost or limit boost at certain RPMs. I have yet to play with this feature.

I also forgot to mention!!! Monitor your LTFT (long term fuel trims) and if they are out of normal range use the MAF transfer table to adjust them closer to 0.0. I was in the 8.7 range and Jordan set it a 1 and that lowered me to 6.5 or so. I added another 0.5 making it 1.5 and that got me to 0.8.
Seems like when you install the SB, it does make your LTFTs a little wacky...but thats completely normal and there is no need to be concerned. Just add 1 if you're high positive or -1 if you are in the negative LTFT; of course, if you are slightly off, then use (+/-) 0.5 or (+/-) 1 if you are 6-8 points off.

Any questions…? Was this a worthwhile post? I don't want to bore anyone if this is common knowledge.

vasaribm 11-04-2008 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoXRacer (Post 101725)
Any questions…? Was this a worthwhile post? I don't want to bore anyone if this is common knowledge.

I think it was great post. I wouldn't worry about if it was common knowledge. There will surely be someone without "common knowledge/understanding" and a step-by-step post such as this will be very useful to look back to.

RedBliss 11-04-2008 01:14 PM

awesome thread! (subbin) quick question, are you guys using the dh to monitor afr's? or are you using a wideband. i kno the stock narrowband isnt as accurate, but will it do for the tunes.

DeadWayt 11-04-2008 01:56 PM

Do folks just not use the SB's built-in datalogger because it's too inconvenient to bring a laptop along for the ride?

jmhinkle 11-04-2008 05:11 PM

"I'm not sure if you ever received my email, but I'd like to work directly with you in tuning your application remotely. If you'd like to talk about getting your car dialed in you're welcome to call (301-576-6142) or email me (jgartenhaus@cp-e.com) anytime."

I did get your email and I thank you. I didn't realize it was open invitation for your direct support though. Figured you guys were pretty busy so it might be rather inconvenient. SB is due in Friday. I'll get it hooked up and start the whole procedure of driving for a few days without it and then be in contact about logs and tuning. I was told there is a base map included on the cd with it. Is that something I should load or stick with the zero map on it now to start? Thanks again.

AutoXRacer 11-04-2008 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedBliss (Post 101753)
awesome thread! (subbin) quick question, are you guys using the dh to monitor afr's? or are you using a wideband. i kno the stock narrowband isnt as accurate, but will it do for the tunes.

Yes, most, if not all of us are using DashHawks to monitor and data log the stock wideband. We have a primary O2 which is a 5V wideband and a 2nd O2 narrowband. DO NOT USE THE NARROW BAND FOR TUNING!!!

AutoXRacer 11-04-2008 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadWayt (Post 101798)
Do folks just not use the SB's built-in datalogger because it's too inconvenient to bring a laptop along for the ride?

I personally use the DashHawk over the SB because its a lot more convenient and easy to use. Plus I am familiar with the graphing software of the DH which has a lot of options...

Anyone else care to comment?

bf360 11-04-2008 06:31 PM

thanks for the posts, lets keep getting more info together so people can start to learn the basics of tuning

Laloosh 11-04-2008 07:25 PM

keep in mind...adding timing will lean you out, removing timing will make u richer

timv 11-05-2008 05:42 AM

I figured since both laloosh and CPE were responding in this thread I would add my datalogs and see if I can get some input also....
I used the boost air temp parameter since that is what laloosh's thread had, I changed it to fuel pressure now though in my dashhawk....
This is on the 17 psi setting with everyhting else zeroed out....
My only mods are a cpe CAI ,step colder HKS plugs and the RPMC turbo inlet...
There are 5 logs here. The first three are 3rd gear WOT pulls, the last two are 4th gear WOT.
Any input would be great.
Thanks in advance...
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...3rdgearWOT.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...3rdgearWOT.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...3rdgearWOT.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...4thgearWOT.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...4thgearWOT.jpg

If you want the direct links, here they are:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...3rdgearWOT.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...3rdgearWOT.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...3rdgearWOT.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...4thgearWOT.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...4thgearWOT.jpg

AutoXRacer 11-05-2008 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timv (Post 102167)
I figured since both laloosh and CPE were responding in this thread I would add my datalogs and see if I can get some input also....
I used the boost air temp parameter since that is what laloosh's thread had, I changed it to fuel pressure now though in my dashhawk....
This is on the 17 psi setting with everyhting else zeroed out....
My only mods are a cpe CAI ,step colder HKS plugs and the RPMC turbo inlet...
There are 5 logs here. The first three are 3rd gear WOT pulls, the last two are 4th gear WOT.
Any input would be great.
Thanks in advance...

OK, first thing, lets get rid of the boosted air temp and replace it with DI fuel pressure and do your logs in 4th gear. We need to see what you fuel pressure is like.

Looking at your first 4th gear log, I notice you are experiencing knock. That could be due to your boosted air temps (hot air). I would try and lower your boost to stock levels since you are still using the stock intercooler. And I would log again to see if that helps reduce the knock.

Personally, I would tackle your AFRs which are out of control. I would shoot for 11.00 - 11.50. But that is up to you how far you want to go. You want it to be a less steeper slope; almost a straight line (in layman terms).

AutoXRacer 11-05-2008 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laloosh (Post 102021)
keep in mind...adding timing will lean you out, removing timing will make u richer

So would you say I can use timing to fine tune my AFRs...? How much affect does 1 degree of timing do the the AFR?
What are the benefits of increasing timing?

timv 11-05-2008 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoXRacer (Post 102214)
OK, first thing, lets get rid of the boosted air temp and replace it with DI fuel pressure and do your logs in 4th gear. We need to see what you fuel pressure is like.

Looking at your first 4th gear log, I notice you are experiencing knock. That could be due to your boosted air temps (hot air). I would try and lower your boost to stock levels since you are still using the stock intercooler. And I would log again to see if that helps reduce the knock.

Personally, I would tackle your AFRs which are out of control. I would shoot for 11.00 - 11.50. But that is up to you how far you want to go. You want it to be a less steeper slope; almost a straight line (in layman terms).

OK, I changed it to fuel pressure and am on the 15 psi map.
These are 4th gear pulls.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...4thgearWOT.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...4thgearWOT.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...4thgearWOT.jpg

Direct links here:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...4thgearWOT.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...4thgearWOT.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...4thgearWOT.jpg
Thanks for the help....

AutoXRacer 11-06-2008 05:04 AM

Man, why are you getting so much knock?

Anyway, I've just started learning how to tune, so this is just my opinion? I would start backwards from the red line to 5,500 RPM and start pulling fuel so you are at or a little above the 11.0 AFR line. I would start with -1 or -2 and see what that does. Once you have the 5,500 RPM to red line curve pretty flat at or slightly above 11.0 AFR, continue working yourself down the RPM curve.

When you reach the 4,500 -3,000 RPM curve, I would add fuel to make the AFR curve go down closer to the 11.0 AFR. Again, just small incremental changes... start with 0.5, 1, 2, etc... Make the changes progressive. I'll load up a screen shot tonight to show you what I'm talking about. For example, if my target is to reduce fuel at 5,000 RPM let say the sweet spot is -5%, then I'll progressively work my way up to -5% (-1, -3, -5, etc). Sometimes the progressiveness will conflict with desired fuel trims...just try to make it as smooth as possible. It will take you a few days to perfect your AFR.

Again, I've just started to tune...so I am not an expert... I just telling you how I would go about it from what I've learned in the past week.

Also, where you have KR (knock), try to pull some timing, just got to where the KR occurs and pull -1 or so and see what it does...see if it actually reduces your knock.

Remember, start with small incremental changes...this will take you a few days to get the hang of it.

See what Laloosh or CP-E says...

timv 11-06-2008 05:25 AM

I do only have 91 octane here so maybe its the gas but this knock is actually better than stock or when I had the AP still...... I have one of the cars that just seems to register knock quite a bit....
Thanks for the explanation. I'll try to adjust those things slightly and see where I am at.....
Thanks...

AutoXRacer 11-06-2008 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timv (Post 102847)
I do only have 91 octane here so maybe its the gas but this knock is actually better than stock or when I had the AP still...... I have one of the cars that just seems to register knock quite a bit....
Thanks for the explanation. I'll try to adjust those things slightly and see where I am at.....
Thanks...

I don't know how much change you'll see with only 0.5-1.0 in the MAF table...but I don't want you go too crazy at first. Just to give you an idea, I started with -1 at 6,000 rpm to redline and now I'm at -10. My AFRs went from piking at high 9s low 10s (stock) to low 11s. I still get a little blip into the high 10s. I'm still working on it.

If you are running 91 octane, then definitely pull timing in the areas you have knock. try -1 degrees in those areas. I'm still struggling with timing...it seems to be a little more complicated than fuel. With timing stick with changes no greater than +/- 3. Start with +/- 0.5 and +/-1. Where you have knock pull timing -0.5 to -1.0 and see if you get a reduction in KR.

Tonight I'll post my current data log and current map just for reference...

Update:
Here they are...
Log #3
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f1...s/DataLog3.jpg

Tune #6
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f1...uneforLog3.jpg

AutoXRacer 11-08-2008 08:27 PM

Jordan, I'm having issues with my boost control...

I am currently set at 19 PSI; I hit 19 but then immediately settle at 16 falling to 15 by 5500 rpm. Is there any way to make it hold at least 17 PSI?

Or is this normal for this turbo?

jmhinkle 11-08-2008 11:40 PM

Which feature are you guys using to add/pull fuel with? I read through the instructions and it seems there are several ways to do it. What is the recommended table to edit?

AutoXRacer 11-09-2008 05:39 AM

I use the MAF table... Then to adjust LTFT, I use the MAF Xfer table.

Laloosh 11-09-2008 07:13 AM

your running on piss water. You need to pull 1-2 degrees of timing in the area of knocking. Once the knock goes away, then start leaning the car out. personally i think 12.0 is fine


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