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 Old 12-05-2010, 11:09 PM   #481
 
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Originally Posted by Click Here View Post
I'm not even sure what you're asking?

Are you asking why the Standback can't flash the fuel cut fix to the ECU?

Or why the flashes aren't provided for free with the purchase of a Standback?
yeah i mean.....why are they not included? i know why tho...

cause who isnt money hungry.

i'm selling my SB and buying an AP.

fuck being robbed over 1000+ for flashes after buying a SB and PnP harness for 1000.

The AP is on it's way to make power and i'll take my chances..

plus AP has all those flashes included in the unit...

I more then understand the SB is a piggy back and not a flash tuner, thank you for offering to answer my question tho.

it was a rhetorical question.

i don't wanna be robbed. TY

Originally Posted by gerry@ardesign View Post
you need to order the cpe big maf instake and full control flashes if you want full capabilities over your turbo. You also need a cpe fuel pump. PM me for pricing.
thanx but no thanx, i'm selling my SB and buying an AP...

have hpfp internals already just not cp-e and i'm using a 4 inch intake with svt lightening maf housing and sensor. =)

plus SB can't fuck with the svt sensor AP can.

damn i sound like i'm reppin for cobb.. fuck i don;t even like cobb... smug fucks..

=)

thank you tho.
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 Old 12-06-2010, 07:24 AM   #482
 
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Originally Posted by jhershorin View Post
Theo...richierichness lives near me if you want to fly me to south africa i would be more than happy to tune you haha...never been there
Well Jakes seeing that is xmas i will have a chat with xmas father and maby he can help out
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 Old 12-06-2010, 10:07 AM   #483
 
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Originally Posted by jhershorin View Post
Rich- your not to far...lets plan a saturday and we'll just pump it out with a street tune if you want.
PM'ed you about this Saturday.
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 Old 12-06-2010, 02:08 PM   #484
 
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Update:
I'm starting to get the hang of this tuning thing. Here are some notes ive taken to help me along the way. It's like a cheat sheet for noobs (me). If any info is wrong please let me know.

-If knock exists and timing drops then pull timing (if AFR is good).
-If knock exists and timing stays the same then add timing (if AFR is good).
-If knock exists and AFR increases/leans then add fuel or pull timing.
-To lower AFR add fuel or pull timing
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 Old 12-06-2010, 02:40 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by RichieRichness View Post
-If knock exists and timing stays the same then add timing (if AFR is good).
Huh?


A better approach is this:

- While at a safe boost level, get the desired AFR's dialed in (typically mid to high 11's).
- Once AFR is dialed, increase boost in 1 psi steps to desired boost level, make sure AFR's are still good
- Dial in timing last, usually in 1 degree increments in all rpm's below 5700 rpm, and stop when you see consistent KR at or above 1.0. Then pull 2 degrees or so.
- For rpms above 5700, make sure that timing smoothly increases from the 5700 value, ending up about 3 degrees more advanced at redline. This is usually best done on a dynomometer, because the knock sensor is deaf in this rpm region, and a dyno will give you an indication of either MBT or detonation.
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 Old 12-06-2010, 06:06 PM   #486
 
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Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
Huh?A better approach is this:While at a safe boost level, get the desired AFR's dialed in (typically mid to high 11's).
I thought adjusting timing and fuel pressure is part of dialing in ARF? Are you saying to ignore timing? I guess I'm a noob and need to read more...
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 Old 12-06-2010, 06:19 PM   #487
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I think you have it backwards. Adjusting AFR will affect timing.

The SB controls AFRs by skewing the MAF signal, telling the ecu there is either more or less air coming in than the MAF sensor is actually reporting. When the ecu is told that there is less air coming in, it'll spray less fuel. When it's told there is more air coming it, it sprays more fuel.

But....! Our ecu is strongly MAF based. When you tell it there is less air coming in (leaning out the AFRs), it'll calculate a lower load, and target more aggressive spark advance for that RPM.

This is how adjusting AFR's affects timing, and it's the exact reason why you dial in AFR's BEFORE spark advance.

If you were to dial in your spark advance first, while your AFRs were still pig rich, and push the timing to MBT or slightly over... when you start leaning out the fuel, your gonna see even more timing, and potentially push the car into detonation.



Fuel pressure on the other hand directly relates to AFR. I forgot about that in my quick ordering, only cause i usually start with -15's in the higher load cells (wot) before anything. I consider that my base map. So yeah, it should be, fp, afr's, boost, then timing.


Make sense?
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 Old 12-07-2010, 06:02 AM   #488
 
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Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
I think you have it backwards. Adjusting AFR will affect timing.

The SB controls AFRs by skewing the MAF signal, telling the ecu there is either more or less air coming in than the MAF sensor is actually reporting. When the ecu is told that there is less air coming in, it'll spray less fuel. When it's told there is more air coming it, it sprays more fuel.

But....! Our ecu is strongly MAF based. When you tell it there is less air coming in (leaning out the AFRs), it'll calculate a lower load, and target more aggressive spark advance for that RPM.

This is how adjusting AFR's affects timing, and it's the exact reason why you dial in AFR's BEFORE spark advance.

If you were to dial in your spark advance first, while your AFRs were still pig rich, and push the timing to MBT or slightly over... when you start leaning out the fuel, your gonna see even more timing, and potentially push the car into detonation.



Fuel pressure on the other hand directly relates to AFR. I forgot about that in my quick ordering, only cause i usually start with -15's in the higher load cells (wot) before anything. I consider that my base map. So yeah, it should be, fp, afr's, boost, then timing.


Make sense?
Thanks dude it make much better sense to me. All the changes I made yesterday need to be reversed because obviously I made some mistakes.

So if I have this right about the MAF table...lets say my AFR at 5000 rpm is 12.5 (which is too high) and my MAF table is reading -4.6 in the higher load cells. Would I increase this number (lets say to -3.6) to tell the MAF to see more air which in turn will push more fuel? Do I have this correct? And if so what adjustment would me needed to drop AFR from 12.5 to 11.5 (just to give me an idea)?

In regards to you starting with -15 in your Fuel PSI table...Jake has me at -7.5
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 Old 12-07-2010, 08:35 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by RichieRichness View Post
So if I have this right about the MAF table...lets say my AFR at 5000 rpm is 12.5 (which is too high) and my MAF table is reading -4.6 in the higher load cells. Would I increase this number (lets say to -3.6) to tell the MAF to see more air which in turn will push more fuel? Do I have this correct? And if so what adjustment would me needed to drop AFR from 12.5 to 11.5 (just to give me an idea)?

In regards to you starting with -15 in your Fuel PSI table...Jake has me at -7.5
Bingo on your logic, you've got exactly the right idea. I say bump it up to about -3.6 at first and see how much it added. It's pretty much an iterative approach with the SB.

-7.5 is fine as well. I'm sure you could at least bump em up to -10 or so at this point. They will affect your afr's, so you want to get them setup before you spend any appreciable time dialing in your MAF table.
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 Old 12-07-2010, 05:37 PM   #490
 
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Here is my latest log and tune. Any pointers to eliminate that knock? How does everything look? Any pointers?
Attached Images
File Type: gif 12-7-2010_4th_Log4.GIF (87.1 KB, 25 views)
Attached Files
File Type: zip 12-07-2010v6.zip (2.1 KB, 5 views)
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Stock Turbo - 331 awhp 397 awtq @ Moore Automotive 11/10/2012 on ~e48
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 Old 12-07-2010, 08:19 PM   #491
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Pull timing at the rpms that the KR occurs. If your KR is 2 degrees, pull 3. If it's 1 degree, pull 2. You'll get it. Your fuel looks pretty damn close to good. Just a tad rich, shoot for 11.7. Pull timing first, then lean the fuel out a tad.
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 Old 12-08-2010, 05:01 AM   #492
 
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Thanks man, will do! Shouldn't I be richer in the high rpms?



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 Old 12-08-2010, 06:28 AM   #493
 
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The ecus normal response is to throw in more fuel to match the air flow rate read by the maf (richer). You make more power by working against this. The more you lean it out the more power you will make. Remember the higher (afr) the number the leaner you are.


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 Old 12-08-2010, 08:33 AM   #494
 
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Originally Posted by cpolly69 View Post
The ecus normal response is to throw in more fuel to match the air flow rate read by the maf (richer). You make more power by working against this. The more you lean it out the more power you will make. Remember the higher (afr) the number the leaner you are.


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Right but I thought running a little rich at high rpm's is good for DD's because its safer?
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 Old 12-08-2010, 08:55 AM   #495
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You can taper it if you want. IMO a flat 11.7 AFR is plenty safe on these cars.
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 Old 12-08-2010, 01:55 PM   #496
 
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Sweet! I made some adjustments all over to lean out AFR. I'll post a log with my results. How does my timing curve look (too much or little in places)?
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 Old 12-13-2010, 08:30 AM   #497
 
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Okay so thanks to Jake for helping me tune this weekend...car feels so much better in high rpms!!!

I've reached a point where I have some questions and need answers. So this morning was cold as ballz so I let my car warm up for 10 minutes before headed to work. On my way to work I was merging on to the highway (in 4th gear) and saw 5.6 KR around 3400 - 3600 rpm so I was like WTF!? It freaked me out so I did a couple logs right away. Here they are.

12-13-2010_4th_Log1.GIF
12-13-2010_4th_Log2.GIF
12-13-2010_timing_table.GIF

I've also attached my timing table and the tune file.

My questions are:

-Why am I getting bad KR in one log but not in the other when they were taken only a couple minutes appart on the same road? I'm pretty sure my car was warmed up (it had been running for 15 minutes by this time and my ECT was 175 degrees).

-Why does timing log different values at low RPM but seems to be consistant at high RPM? For example: In my first log timing advance is at -1 degrees at 3400 rpm while in the second log it's at +3 degrees.

-(Maybe this question is for Jake) If you look at the timing table why are some rows different within the same row? For example: at 5700 RPM, timing from 3.1 to 3.6 volts is set to -2.8 degrees of timing while the following values change from -2 degrees for 3.8 volts and -1.9 degrees from 4.0 to 5.0 volts.

-What changes if any should be made to my tune or was this just a fluke?
Attached Files
File Type: zip JakesModifiedTune_12-13-2010.zip (2.3 KB, 5 views)
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 Old 12-13-2010, 10:02 AM   #498
 
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Haha man
The answer on the kr is - Because you drive an MS3!!
Almost every car out there has the phantom kr in cruising rpm range while in closed loop especially when it's cold- IMO - it's usually because of fueling corrections the ecu is making due to the cold temp, I think it's tossing in too much fuel and that causes kr- I wouldn't worry about it unless it persists even after the car is significantly warmed up (longer time then what you described and higher ect)- Then there a whole slew of theories about what causes it. Things like particulates entering the intake manifold via your pcv system causing it all the way up to totally imbalanced pvc due to combustion chamber gases leaking into the crankcase or valvetrain area...
You aren't seeing it in ol (wot) - it looks like as you transitioned it stepped down - looked like you had a tiny little .7 blip there later in the rpm range, but that is nothing to worry about.
Ultimately I don't see anything wrong - You live in MD so the temp is prob just about as bad as what I'm seeing - This is all normal operation for MS3...
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 Old 12-13-2010, 10:46 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by RichieRichness View Post
My questions are:

-Why am I getting bad KR in one log but not in the other when they were taken only a couple minutes appart on the same road? I'm pretty sure my car was warmed up (it had been running for 15 minutes by this time and my ECT was 175 degrees).
Boost wasn't in that log, so perhaps you had boost spike? Were both logs the same gear? Boost spike is pretty common on the stock snail, and can be tricky to address. Sometimes it takes hardware and software to keep from spiking too bad. Post up a log with boost on it (a bbx log would be good).

Originally Posted by RichieRichness View Post
-Why does timing log different values at low RPM but seems to be consistant at high RPM? For example: In my first log timing advance is at -1 degrees at 3400 rpm while in the second log it's at +3 degrees.
Timing differs cause the ECU is pulling a few degrees of timing in response to KR. This is normal.

Originally Posted by RichieRichness View Post
-(Maybe this question is for Jake) If you look at the timing table why are some rows different within the same row? For example: at 5700 RPM, timing from 3.1 to 3.6 volts is set to -2.8 degrees of timing while the following values change from -2 degrees for 3.8 volts and -1.9 degrees from 4.0 to 5.0 volts.
I'm not jake. Not sure if it's intentional or just left over from where he started and ended.

Originally Posted by RichieRichness View Post
-What changes if any should be made to my tune or was this just a fluke?
If you see KR there again, pull some timing. 5.6 is alot of KR, so i would go ahead and pull 3 degrees off the bat (at those rpm's), and smooth the timing out in surrounding cells. Then see if you get any other KR in the future.
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 Old 12-13-2010, 11:08 AM   #500
 
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Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
Boost wasn't in that log, so perhaps you had boost spike? Were both logs the same gear? Boost spike is pretty common on the stock snail, and can be tricky to address. Sometimes it takes hardware and software to keep from spiking too bad. Post up a log with boost on it (a bbx log would be good).


Yes both logs were in the same gear

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
Timing differs cause the ECU is pulling a few degrees of timing in response to KR. This is normal.
Understood

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
I'm not jake. Not sure if it's intentional or just left over from where he started and ended.
I'd like more input on this please....Jake?

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
If you see KR there again, pull some timing. 5.6 is alot of KR, so i would go ahead and pull 3 degrees off the bat (at those rpm's), and smooth the timing out in surrounding cells. Then see if you get any other KR in the future.
I feel like there is already too much timing pulled....plus I'd think Jake would have seen a problem here when we were tuning....I'm leaning more towards a boost spike in this area. I'll log boost and go from there.

Thanks for the input...I'll post boost logs tonight.
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 Old 12-13-2010, 11:25 AM   #501
 
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Should the timing table be setup as RPM v MAF or RPM v MAP?
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 Old 12-13-2010, 12:26 PM   #502
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Both are acceptable. I use MAP cause it's more linear, and the MAF voltage is logarithmic. MAP is a good enough approximation to air flow and works quite nicely. Least accurate is using throttle position... so i never suggest that.
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 Old 12-13-2010, 01:45 PM   #503
 
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Rich - i was probably just still car sick from all the swirving around those hilly billly roads we were on haha...email me the map and i'll linearize the areas i didn't smooth out.

As for the timing - can you get me a standback log so i can see the PID error. If its just boost spike I can tune it out with the PID settings so it spools slightly slower and doesn't spike like that.

Once it is linearized it may remove some of that kr crazyness. Aside from that one incident looks clean. Some pulls on 270 to nit pick the intricacies out would be fun. Maybe next time im up that way we can do that...
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 Old 12-13-2010, 02:23 PM   #504
 
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Hahah some of those roads were ultra fail but maybe thats how they log in NJ lol. I'll send you map(s) and log(s) tonight.
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 Old 12-14-2010, 07:16 AM   #505
 
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Default KP , KD, KI

Guys a stupid ? u talk about kd of 30 , ki 200 and kd of 300. Mine is 30.000 .090 and 100.000.if u start with the settings is it just 30 or is it 30.000 that u use.and then what logs would u use so that u can get that nice toaster graph
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 Old 12-14-2010, 08:49 AM   #506
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Not sure on the values specifically, but when i did PID tuning to dial in a 3071r a while back, i would focus on Ki, Kp, and Kd along with WGDC. When you log with the SB, it'll automatically log every parameter. Then you just open the log with the BBX software and view the parameters i just mentioned.

Look at the boost curve, and see if it's over boosting, or under boosting... and what the WGDC is doing at that time. Higher WGDC will increase the boost, and lower WGDC will decrease the boost.

Then compare the K terms (i,p, & d) and see which ones are pushing the WGDC in the desired location (like lowering it for overboost and increasing it for underboost).

Lastly, either increase the term(s) that are pushing the WGDC in the right direction, or decrease the term(s) that are pushing WGDC in wrong direction.



Sounds a lil complicated, but it's really not too difficult. I dialed in a 3071 with toaster boost curve in like 6 maps using this technique. Don't worry too much about the specific values in each term, just determine which ones are helping, and which ones are hurting, and adjust accordingly.
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 Old 12-14-2010, 10:12 AM   #507
 
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Originally Posted by jhershorin View Post
Rich - i was probably just still car sick from all the swirving around those hilly billly roads we were on haha...email me the map and i'll linearize the areas i didn't smooth out.

As for the timing - can you get me a standback log so i can see the PID error. If its just boost spike I can tune it out with the PID settings so it spools slightly slower and doesn't spike like that.

Once it is linearized it may remove some of that kr crazyness. Aside from that one incident looks clean. Some pulls on 270 to nit pick the intricacies out would be fun. Maybe next time im up that way we can do that...
Sounds good dude! Hit me up when your back in the area! Logs and map sent to your email last night.
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 Old 12-15-2010, 07:24 AM   #508
 
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Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
Not sure on the values specifically, but when i did PID tuning to dial in a 3071r a while back, i would focus on Ki, Kp, and Kd along with WGDC. When you log with the SB, it'll automatically log every parameter. Then you just open the log with the BBX software and view the parameters i just mentioned.

Look at the boost curve, and see if it's over boosting, or under boosting... and what the WGDC is doing at that time. Higher WGDC will increase the boost, and lower WGDC will decrease the boost.

Then compare the K terms (i,p, & d) and see which ones are pushing the WGDC in the desired location (like lowering it for overboost and increasing it for underboost).

Lastly, either increase the term(s) that are pushing the WGDC in the right direction, or decrease the term(s) that are pushing WGDC in wrong direction.
Sounds a lil complicated, but it's really not too difficult. I dialed in a 3071 with toaster boost curve in like 6 maps using this technique. Don't worry too much about the specific values in each term, just determine which ones are helping, and which ones are hurting, and adjust accordingly.
Thanks Dj
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 Old 12-15-2010, 07:43 AM   #509
 
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Default SB Data log

Dj here is a log on the sb if you can have a look and let me know
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 Old 12-15-2010, 07:53 AM   #510
 
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Her is another log
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 Old 12-15-2010, 08:02 AM   #511
 
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Can someone post a ziped version of the BBX software plz.
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 Old 12-15-2010, 08:13 AM   #512
 
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Rich - hit me up later tonight and i'll send you the link...work has been reallllly hectic this week. Text me after 6pm and i'll get your email and the bbx stuff handled
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 Old 12-15-2010, 10:39 AM   #513
 
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Originally Posted by RichieRichness View Post
Can someone post a ziped version of the BBX software plz.
Standback Tuning Software, Drivers, and Logging Software
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 Old 12-15-2010, 01:03 PM   #514
 
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Edit: the new www.cp-e.com guy must have fixed the link (i pm'ed him about it 2 days ago). Link still doesnt work for me but it's prob because of my firewall at work.
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 Old 12-15-2010, 01:13 PM   #515
 
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Originally Posted by RichieRichness View Post
Already tried....that thread has dead links....You get a groan sir
link worked like a champ for me just now
matter fact this is what it looked like when i clicked it

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 Old 12-15-2010, 01:14 PM   #516
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Originally Posted by theo View Post
Dj here is a log on the sb if you can have a look and let me know
Originally Posted by theo View Post
Her is another log
Great logs... good to know you understand what i posted lol, cause i was worried it would be hard to understand.


Here's how to read them basically.

Looking at the first log... you'll notice 2 things:

1) Your WGDC is very low while in boost. This means that your pretty much running the lowest boost possible at this point without going to a weaker WG spring, or a larger restrictor pill. Your on the low side of acceptability... but since it's winter, and temps are cold, it'll only get better in spring and summer, so i'd be okay with leaving it like this. If / when WGDC = 0... it means your ecu no longer has boost control, and your likely going to get some boost creep, but like i said, your not there yet.

2) You have about a 1 psi oscillation in the second part of that pull. It's not horrible, but you should definitely be able to get it to level off (converge) to the desired boost.

When the boost is over target, the WGDC goes low, which drops the boost below target, thus making the WGDC go high, etc etc etc.


On the second log... you get to see how each PID term is influencing the WGDC signal. A rough way to think of each term is this: P term is based off the current error, D term is based off how fast the error is changing (getting better or getting worse), and the I term is based off past error (how long have you been too low, or too high)....

- Look at how the P term very closely matches the WGDC... they're almost identical. This means the P terms is heavily weighted, or has the most influence. It's probably the main culprit to the oscillations. It's value should be reduced.

- The D term is actually oscillating inversely compared to the WGDC, so it seems like it's trying to "level things off". I would increase it's value some.

- And lastly is the I term, which doesn't look all that suspect at all, so i'd probably leave it's value unchanged.


Try just bumping the values a lil bit a time, and looking at logs. Certain parameters don't require much change at all in order to have a large affect. Play with it for an hour or so, and i bet you get a picture perfect boost curve.
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 Old 12-20-2010, 10:02 AM   #517
 
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Now that I'm tuned I wanted to solve the "high fuel trim" issue I've had. My FT's have always been in the +8 to +15 range so I figured installing an AEM air straightener would work nicely with my MS CAI.

The only problem I ran into during installation was that the air straightener is a 2.5 inch diameter while the MS CAI is 3 ichnes. To fix this I picked up a 3" coupler that came with a 2.5" insert.

It worked! Now my LTFT's are -8 to +8. The only problem is it fucked up my tune!!!!!!!!!!! My afr's drip into the 10's and stay there untill redline. I guess the good news is that I'm pretty much knock.

What caused my AFR's to drop this much? Was not having the air straightener making that much of a difference or did I cut down air flow with the 2.5" insert? Should I find a different solution or stay with this setup and adjust my tune?

before air straightener:
Before Air Straightener.GIF
After air straightener:
After Air Straightener.GIF
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 Old 12-20-2010, 10:30 AM   #518
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You don't ever want to change some thing as critical as air flow across the MAF sensor on a MAF based car after you've been tuned.

Your lucky it made you go richer, not leaner.

I would remove the air straightener, and use the maf xfer table to fix the fuel trims.
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 Old 12-20-2010, 01:35 PM   #519
 
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wow I fail...how does the MAF transfer utility work exactly? Whats the process to lower LTFT?
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 Old 12-20-2010, 01:41 PM   #520
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It's in the MAF screen, on a tab at the top of the table. Its a very basic voltage scalar for the maf voltage.

If your having weird trims at idle, you log your MAF volts during idle, and see what they are. Then go to your maf xfer table and tweak it up or down (depending on direction of trims, add for + trims, and subtract for - trims) at the problematic voltages.
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Check out the hair Salon:
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