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 Old 11-09-2008, 07:54 AM   #41
 
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Originally Posted by Laloosh View Post
your running on piss water. You need to pull 1-2 degrees of timing in the area of knocking. Once the knock goes away, then start leaning the car out. personally i think 12.0 is fine
Yeah, I actually already started tuning it and have gotten the knock under 2 all over and my AFR smoother. Still tweaking it a bit but will post my process once complete....

Thanks for the help....
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 Old 11-09-2008, 08:03 AM   #42
 
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Originally Posted by AutoXRacer View Post
Jordan, I'm having issues with my boost control...

I am currently set at 19 PSI; I hit 19 but then immediately settle at 16 falling to 15 by 5500 rpm. Is there any way to make it hold at least 17 PSI?

Or is this normal for this turbo?
Hey there, if I may make a suggestion since I had a similar issue before and Jordan is at SEMA. Try changing your Kp to 35, your Kd to 250 and your Ki to .300. Now these values are just suggestions and I am sure that Jordan will tell you to play with those settings to see if you can get the boost to hold better.

Also what is happening to your wastegate during that time. If it is completely maxed then you just might be shit out of luck (which was my situation). You then have either a boost leak somewhere and probably small judging by the fact that you hit your target psi or the turbo is well what it is a POS and you are just spinnin' away way out of range.

Although I have the reworked stocker it is still a K04 so the same principles apply. My previous set up I would hit target and than drop to pretty much like you around 15- 16 psi by 5500 and then settle at 14-15 by redline. Now with the new reworker from Ken at PG I hit 20 psi and hold it to around 5000 than 19 psi to around 5700 and I settle around 17.5 by redline. Big difference my friend.

So to answer your question, this is probably not normal for this turbo. There is a problem and I hope you fix it. Try those boost setting if you want, see if that helps. All this stuff that I said is pretty much what Jordan was telling me when I had this issue. Good luck man, and Jordan if you read this post , chime in please if I am steering this gentelman in the wrong direction.
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 Old 11-09-2008, 05:53 PM   #43
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Alright I need help! Right now I'm running just a boost control zero map set to 15 psi. I have what I think is the Map Clamp set to 11 psi. My car still says hell no at right around 6000 RPM and cuts fuel. I didn't have this problem with the FCD and MBC. Do I need to go lower with the clamp? I don't have the software in front of me, but just to clarify the clamp is that setting in the advanced box by the PID values right?
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 Old 11-09-2008, 06:05 PM   #44
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we need logs, whats your a/f ratio and fuel trims at the time of the cut?
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 Old 11-09-2008, 08:44 PM   #45
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No logs needed yet. I'm strictly working on getting the map clamp set and my altitude always plays tricks on it. I remember having to adjust the ATP FCD to read lower so I watched the DH and with the SB clip set to 11 I was still seeing 14 psi which my car has never tolerated. At a clip of 9 it reads 12.xx which is close, but my car has to be under 12 to not cut at that magic RPM set in the ECU. Right now I'm at 6 reading 9.xx. I'll play with dialing it in around 11. Then I will log and we can begin to tune. I also had to dial back boost because set to 15 I was seeing 17+. At 14 it seems to hold 16 quite nicely so I'll work on that as my first map. I have noticed that boost holds pretty darn steady with the standback compared to the MBC and AP.
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 Old 11-09-2008, 11:26 PM   #46
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Another question. My standback has software 2.09 beta. Can I get the newer software somewhere? I don't see a download link on cp-e's website.
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 Old 11-10-2008, 05:58 AM   #47
 
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This morning for the first time, I've experienced boost cut with the Standback...and I can't tune it out. I tried going as low as 7 PSi boost clip without success...

What other parameters can I tune to get rid of this boost cut? Its definitely boost cut and not fuel cut. It triggered boost cut as I hit 19 PSI. I could tune it out by lowering my boost to 15-16 PSI...as long as I did not spike to 19 PSI. Temperatures this morning were 50* for the first time...

Here are some logs:

Log 1 Boost Cut


Log 2 Boost Cut
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 Old 11-10-2008, 07:46 AM   #48
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Here is a log to start. This is a 3rd gear pull. Pretty hard for me to get a 4th gear pull in. Will this work to start tuning?

ED: Where is the picture? If I click on edit, it shows it attached?
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 Old 11-10-2008, 07:51 AM   #49
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See if this works:

http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/r...ar1stweb-2.jpg
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 Old 11-10-2008, 07:55 AM   #50
 
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Originally Posted by jmhinkle View Post
Here is a log to start. This is a 3rd gear pull. Pretty hard for me to get a 4th gear pull in. Will this work to start tuning?

ED: Where is the picture? If I click on edit, it shows it attached?
4th gear is preferred due to load characteristics placed on the engine... Someone else will have to comment on 3rd gear pulls...

Also, lose the boosted temps and replace it with Fuel Pressure.
If you want Laloosh to tune, post it on his thread with boosted temps; Jordan prefers fuel pressure...

Also, we need more resolution (detail-zoom in) on the AFRs...

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to make things clear, this was meant to be a thread to learn how to tune... Laloosh has a thread where you can post logs and he'll tune it for you. Start tuning with the posts on page one...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Last edited by AutoXRacer; 11-10-2008 at 08:37 AM.
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 Old 11-10-2008, 08:01 AM   #51
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3rd and 4th pull with more detail.

http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/r...hdetailweb.jpg

Why would I log fuel pressure when all the posts to this point say log BAT including the CP-e one? Maybe this thread needs better clarification on what YOU want. Your response definitely doesn't point to this thread being about a tuning guide for everyone. I wasn't looking for a Loosh specific tune either. If he responds great, but this was supposed to be a learning experience for us all including the newbies to the SB such as myself.
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 Old 11-10-2008, 08:27 AM   #52
 
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Originally Posted by www.cp-e.com View Post
RPM- We need to know this to understand "when" we're making changes.

AFR - Good feedback for air/fuel tuning. Gives some indication as to how much fuel should be added/removed.

Timing Advance - Timing advance tells a lot about how the car is running. Low timing advance (before tuning) could indicate that there's a problem, and that the ECU is pulling timing for some reason. It's also important to have some indication as to how much advance the engine is running.

Knock Retard - The more knock retard the ECU registers, the more knock there is. The amount of timing the ECU pulls in response to knock is proportional to the knock event. You can use the KR to indicate how hot (or poor) a tune is.

BAT - This one isn't as important, but it can help explain weird knock events, or issues with the turbocharger.
I was told to log DI Fuel pressure... I'm just relaying info that was given to me...


Also my following comment:
Originally Posted by AutoXRacer View Post

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to make things clear, this was meant to be a thread to learn how to tune... Laloosh has a thread where you can post logs and he'll tune it for you. Start tuning with the posts on page one...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
was not directed personally at you, jmhinkle... I've just been wanting to post a clarification in case people were confused with both threads since they are similar in nature...
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 Old 11-11-2008, 07:53 AM   #53
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Here is a 4th gear pull until I had to let off short of redline. Outside temp 55ish. Has fuel pressure in it too. Where should I begin chopping fuel and adding timing?

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 Old 11-11-2008, 08:20 AM   #54
 
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I would start pulling fuel at 5500 RPM through red line; try to level that AFR curve... Once you level off that RPM range and see how , -1, -2 ,-3, etc reacts on your car's AFRs, I would continue to pull the rest of the AFR curve (3000-red line) towards the 12.0 range...depending how aggressive you want to go with your tune.

I personally started with a goal of 11.50, but now find myself trying to shift my curve closer to 12.00... I'm waiting to hear from the pros to see if this is a wise choice. I don't want to be too agressive...I value reliability.

Regarding timing, as I've said before, I have reverted back to stock timing since my car seems to like that better. If I see I have consistent knock, then I would pull -1 or -2 degrees of timing (always start in small increments). If you don't have any knock, just concentrate on your AFR curve for now...clean it up and when you are done, tackle timing and see how your car reacts.

Jordan recommends to pull -1 to -2 degrees of timing on the low end, 0-3,000 RPM and Laloosh likes to add timing on the top end around 5500 RPM to red line; with no more than +3 degrees. Remember, adding timing will lean out your AFR and increase potential to knock. Just to give you a comparison, my timing peaks at 13-14 degrees at 5500 RPM, but its mostly level at 10 degrees throughout the RPM range.

I hope that helps...
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 Old 11-12-2008, 04:11 AM   #55
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Okie Dokie, I chopped some fuel and added a big KR. What do you make of this? I went negative on my % changes for the MAF table, but it seems like instead of leaning out, I just went rich longer. Did I go the wrong way? On my settings I went back to BAT because I'm at 5300 ft on a stock turbo with an upgraded pump. I'm not worried about pressure and don't think it will show me anything.

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 Old 11-12-2008, 05:58 AM   #56
 
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Hmm, don't know why you knocked there...make sure your timing map is not adding timing in that region. I'll make two suggestions first.

Try to keep your logs identical in terms of scaling; in your previous log (which had good scaling) the AFR scale was pretty good and ideal. Just try to keep the resolution (scale/zoom) as close to relevant scale as possible.

And swap the Knock Retard PID for the Spark Adv PID and just place the vertical marker over the max Knock Retard data point when capturing the edited log.

Also, try taking two data logs right after each other if possible.
The reason I say that, is that the first data log I take of the day usually has slight knock in it, and the following ones are clean. Maybe the engine just needs a WOT run to just clear itself out. Who knows...just a suggestion.

Keep pulling fuel to get that AFR curve more level towards the 12.00 AFR range.
Just ignore the knock for now and see if it comes up on the next log.

If you see that -1, -2, is not pulling much fuel, you can try easing into a little more aggressive numbers like -3 to -6... Just make sure to progressively to the changes.

I hope that helps.
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 Old 11-12-2008, 08:08 AM   #57
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Cool thanks. I will readjust my DH like you said. I also took another run after that one, but didn't log it and got no knock so maybe there is that need for two runs. Jordan just sent me a log based on the original run and looking at it, I was headed the right direction, but his is more aggressive. We'll see what it does.
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 Old 11-12-2008, 09:09 AM   #58
 
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Awesome... I was a little worried whether I was steering you in the right direction!!

Let us know how it works out!!!
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 Old 11-12-2008, 02:50 PM   #59
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About to get started tuning this standback, but I gotta know a bit about the boost control first... AP maps are off and fuel trims are settled and I'm really ready to get this thing running RIGHT

I saw the bit about the PID control, but what is the Boost Clip PSI setting doing? What is the "Emergency boost shutdown enable" doing? What is the domain of inputs for this field?

Now let me make sure I understand the boost control strategy right... you can either type in your desired boost pressure and allow the standback to do PID control either using the defaul settings or you can mess with the PID control. If you use the grid control then you type in your desired boost pressure based on TPS and rpm, and the standback uses the PID method to hit the desired boost which changes based on the two axes.

I assume there's no way to use the stock boost control strategy (thats fine I just want to make sure thats right.)

Also, what is the simulate engine data checkbox on the configuration page?

Thanks guys!
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 Old 11-12-2008, 04:36 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by subparpunk03 View Post
About to get started tuning this standback, but I gotta know a bit about the boost control first... AP maps are off and fuel trims are settled and I'm really ready to get this thing running RIGHT

I saw the bit about the PID control, but what is the Boost Clip PSI setting doing? What is the "Emergency boost shutdown enable" doing? What is the domain of inputs for this field?

Now let me make sure I understand the boost control strategy right... you can either type in your desired boost pressure and allow the standback to do PID control either using the defaul settings or you can mess with the PID control. If you use the grid control then you type in your desired boost pressure based on TPS and rpm, and the standback uses the PID method to hit the desired boost which changes based on the two axes.

I assume there's no way to use the stock boost control strategy (thats fine I just want to make sure thats right.)

Also, what is the simulate engine data checkbox on the configuration page?

Thanks guys!
Welcome!

Let me answer those questions for you:

Boost Clip PSI - Basically our electronic MAP clamp. Anytime you exceed the value entered in this field, the SB will report that value to the ECU. So while you're running, say, 17psi, we're telling the EC that you're actually boosting much lower. Thankfully this car doesn't really use the MAP sensor fueling, so I typically drop that value down to 8 from the default 13.

Emergency Boost Shutdown - Used for the water/meth control. If you have a flow meter or float switch (really any sensor that spits out a 12-volt signal) the Standback will accept the signal, and when it sees it the tune gets neutered. In other words, if you had a water/meth flow meter on the car and your nozzle clogged, the flow meter would send out a signal indicating that the water/meth flow has dropped below a certain threshold. The Standback will see this signal and immediately drop down to wastegate spring pressure and yank 5° of timing to prevent any engine damage from the loss of flow. 1 turns the feature on and 0 turns it off.

Boost Control - You have it exactly right. Either used the fixed boost setting and the SB will always try to target a certain pressure, or you can use the grid and adjust boost relative to other variables like TPS, MAF,and (incoming) MAP.

Simulate Engine - Internal use only. In fact, we removed this feature in later software revisions.


I hope that helps!
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 Old 11-12-2008, 06:40 PM   #61
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So the boost clip / map clamp feature is always enabled even if you don't have "Allow changes to advanced boost control" checked, right?

So to log the actual boost pressure I can use the standback realtime graphs, but should I check MAP Pressure, Des Map Pres, or New Map Pres?
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 Old 11-13-2008, 03:26 AM   #62
 
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Originally Posted by subparpunk03 View Post
So the boost clip / map clamp feature is always enabled even if you don't have "Allow changes to advanced boost control" checked, right?

So to log the actual boost pressure I can use the standback realtime graphs, but should I check MAP Pressure, Des Map Pres, or New Map Pres?
Use the MAP Press to monitor the boost...though you should have a boost gauge which would make it a lot easier... Data logging with the SB is not like with the DashHawk. The SB logs all the PIDs in that drop list...then you have to export it to Excel and study the log that way.

Those parameters in the Advanced Boost Control box are always enabled. The check box is only there to allow you to change the values.

The reason I say you need a boost gauge is because when you set your target boost, you will notice that depending on your Kd, Kp, Ki, settings, you boost will build faster/slower, spike, or not reach target boost. These 3 parameters will fine tune the way you want your turbo to spool up. Its very tricky to figure it out, but the best way is to play with the settings and see what results you get. Its taken me a few days to learn what each parameter does and how the values effect boost delivery; just make small incremental changes!!
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 Old 11-13-2008, 10:40 AM   #63
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Yeah i've got a boost gauge (prosport), its fairly accurate but tends to lose accuracy above 20/21 psi. I like to log boost just so I can examine it later too though, and see exactly how its behaving from start to finish. Its helpful to me to change PID settings and overlay to boost curves to see exactly how it changes.

I'll write a little utility to convert the csv standback log file to the dashhawk tab delimited format... I'll upload it once its done (gonna be a week or two)

Now, the MAP and WG filt length.... I'm still a little shaky on what those do.
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 Old 11-13-2008, 11:59 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by subparpunk03 View Post
Now, the MAP and WG filt length.... I'm still a little shaky on what those do.
You probably wont' have to mess with those, as those settings are far from being intuitive, and we think we've nailed those settings down pretty well for the Mazda application. Those fields change how we report the MAP and wastegate solenoid signals to the ECU. The larger the number, the more points the SB will sample before reporting an average value. So really, you can probably leave those fields alone if you'd like to.
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 Old 11-16-2008, 10:15 PM   #65
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So I've found out why my car is having such big problems with my setup (FMIC, reworked turbo, catted downpipe, etc.)

When I floor it at < 3k rpms, the stock throttle cranks open to about 80%, i guess to help the turbo spool, then slims back to about 40% and slowly increases from there. This is where the car runs INSANELY lean and where there is a crippling amount of audible knock.

I've tried changing the MAF tables for this but since the fuel system is in closed loop, it doesn't seem to be making any difference. Can someone explain the fuel adder table to me? I saw that feature mentioned earlier in this thread?

I understand the fuel pressure change table since thats a %change kind of deal, but the fuel adder table seems to be a little different.

I'll post up some logs soonly-ish to illustrate what I'm talking about.
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 Old 11-17-2008, 10:15 AM   #66
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here's what I'm talking about:



don't worry about the atrocious boost curve, got that figured out, when I floor it and the throttle flies way open, i can't seem to richen it up at all even though I have set all my >3.5 volt TPS and <2400 rpms cells to scale the MAF voltage by 5%

I haven't touched timing at all, I'm going to try and pull a bit in this area, even though its already running very little, it does just need to run richer and the MAF adjustment isn't getting it done.
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 Old 11-17-2008, 10:22 AM   #67
 
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What software version are you running?
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 Old 11-17-2008, 11:59 AM   #68
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software version of standback tuning software? or dashhawk? Or other?

Standback is a V2, using Standback II Programmer A-211 (alpha 2.11)
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 Old 11-17-2008, 01:58 PM   #69
 
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I was just asking, because I had my in car LED mis-match my primary and secondary maps. Initially, I thought the red LED was primary and secondary was green... Its the other way around; though, I was using the new beta software.

The correct configuration is:
-Green LED is primary map.
-Red LED is secondary map.

I think I'm the only one who had this issue...but I'm just putting it out there just in case. This was specific to the v2.5 beta software for the Standback software.
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 Old 11-17-2008, 02:06 PM   #70
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I actually don't have the switch or LED hooked up just yet. I was under the impression that if I did not have it hooked in then it would just run the primary maps?

I haven't hooked it in yet b/c there is a button on my Aquamist WI kit that acts in a similar manner, and I will be using that to control when to switch from primary to secondary maps, the LED is essentially not needed b/c when my aquamist gauge is all lit up then it should be running the secondary map, otherwise it should run the primary map.

Please let me know if this is not the case and the standback requires that the switch and LED be installed to function properly.
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 Old 11-17-2008, 02:42 PM   #71
 
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You're right...the default map setting is the primary if you don't install the switch/LED.
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 Old 11-17-2008, 03:08 PM   #72
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so... still confused about the fuel adder feature.... basically, i know people are mainly changing the WOT characteristics, but I need to make changes to the car super early in the powerband, while this bad mamba jamba is still in closed loop.
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 Old 11-17-2008, 04:16 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by subparpunk03 View Post
so... still confused about the fuel adder feature.... basically, i know people are mainly changing the WOT characteristics, but I need to make changes to the car super early in the powerband, while this bad mamba jamba is still in closed loop.
You've actually just touched on another issue that I feel needs to be addressed.

I started writing up some better instructions for the 2.11 software, and we decided not to finish it because we were almost done with the new v2.5 that's about to drop. However, more folks are starting to tune on their own and I feel we need some better software support here, so I'll post what I have pertaining to v2.11.

subparpunk03, I think what happened is that you were using the "Fuel adder" table which is actually used to control a water/meth controller. The table labels aren't very intuitive, and I'm sorry for the confusion! If you want to, you're welcome to send me your current tune and I can look it over for you, and maybe make some suggestions?

Anyway, give this document a look and let me know if you have any questions about it.

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 Old 11-24-2008, 02:09 PM   #74
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yo, i'm retarded when it comes to this. what do i do in order to flatten out my afrs?
at like 3k, afr is at 12 or high 11's and then at like 6k, it's down to 10.5.
do i use the primary maf table?
i am a complete n00000b
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 Old 11-24-2008, 02:09 PM   #75
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yo, i'm retarded when it comes to this. what do i do in order to flatten out my afrs?
at like 3k, afr is at 12 or high 11's and then at like 6k, it's down to 10.5.
do i use the primary maf table?
i am a complete n00000b
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 Old 11-24-2008, 09:54 PM   #76
 
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Originally Posted by phillyb View Post
yo, i'm retarded when it comes to this. what do i do in order to flatten out my afrs?
at like 3k, afr is at 12 or high 11's and then at like 6k, it's down to 10.5.
do i use the primary maf table?
i am a complete n00000b
Yes, use the MAF table to adjust fueling. You'll need to data log and once study your AFR curve, start trimming down the fuel in -0.5 to -1.0 increments. I started from red line and worked my way up to 3K. I started my changes in the 3.1 to 3.6 TPS voltage range.

Remember, small incremental changes...
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 Old 11-25-2008, 04:44 AM   #77
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Is there anyway to work on Maps without having the StandBack connected? I would like to edit maps while in work or at home and then load them to the car later, but if I try to edit anything the software says "Standback not detected."
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 Old 11-25-2008, 04:57 AM   #78
 
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Originally Posted by jmhinkle View Post
Is there anyway to work on Maps without having the StandBack connected? I would like to edit maps while in work or at home and then load them to the car later, but if I try to edit anything the software says "Standback not detected."
You have to check allow map changes and uncheck send changes immediately. Then you can save the tuning data named whatever you want.
Then once hooked up in the car, you can load that tune into the laptop again and send all maps to ECU.
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 Old 11-25-2008, 05:05 AM   #79
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Sorry, for clarification I'm on the version 2.5 software and I don't have those options that I can find. Anyone else using 2.5?
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 Old 11-25-2008, 05:28 AM   #80
 
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Originally Posted by jmhinkle View Post
Sorry, for clarification I'm on the version 2.5 software and I don't have those options that I can find. Anyone else using 2.5?
Yes, if you click on where it says Standback not connected, it will turn offline.
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