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 Old 12-09-2008, 11:21 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Silo View Post
Hi Jordan,

the orifice - another PITA! I have used .6mm and it would not boost past 16 psi, I used .8mm and it would spike into the 24+ area causing spark blow out and a nice after fire in the exhaust! I couldnt find anything in between so I finally installed a needle valve similar to the one pictured to dial in the necessary pressure:



I really tried increasing/decreasing incrementially but no setting would work for both boost settings.

That leads me to believe that the stock solenoid is too small/slow for big turbos like the GT35R, especially if internaly wastegated (which limits the abilities of boost control). We have to reduce the boost the stock solenoid gets because it is not capable of bleeding enough pressure. Anyone ever tried the Perrin solenoid?

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I have found a setting with an acceptable spike of 1.5 psi and an acceptable hold boost (while boost tapering after 5500rpm might not be the worst thing) and MAYBE it will be spiking less once ambient temps are over 10°C as we are around freezing point at this moment.

Oh, and I have no load cuts at all any more - despite the low ambient temps! MAF-XF adjustment:

Thanks for the clarification on your setup Silo, this makes a lot of sense actually.

I'm confident that the factory solenoid will work because as I said I've seen it control a GT35R in two different applications. 2nr had one dialed in on his MS6 (before he recently parted it out) and laloosh had his running on the factory solenoid as well. Both customers have since moved one to their next project, but they were both able to control their respective GT35R turbos with a factory solenoid and Standback. I think we just need to go through your setup with a fine toothed comb and see what's going on.

Okay, first, I can tell you that without a doubt that 0.6mm is too small. I'm surprised however that running that orifice didn't make the car overshoot. If the orifice is too small then there won't be a large enough pressure source to open the wastegate, and the turbo overspins. Of course on the other hand too large and the solenoid can't evacuate enough pressure from the wastegate and the diaphragm stays open which spins the turbo down. The stock turbo uses a ~0.035" (~0.9mm) orifice, and typically folks are enlarging them slightly for the bigger GT turbos. So if you have the chance you might try running a 1mm or even 1.1mm orifice and see what you get.

The fact that you've eliminated the cuts is fantastic however!! I'm hoping that we can accomplish a similar function with our flash, but until we do I'll have to keep your method in mind
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 Old 12-09-2008, 11:33 AM   #162
 
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Oh, I used 1.0 and 1.2mm as well but these were too large (too low boost) as well - I think I told it backwards in my previous post regarding overshooting. I guess I would have needed something around 0.7mm but that was unavailable, hence the valve solution.
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 Old 12-09-2008, 11:39 AM   #163
 
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Originally Posted by www.cp-e.com View Post
Yeah, all we really need is a wastegate solenoid. So really, as long as you have one the SB can control just about any turbo setup.
can you clarify this please?sorry im a new to ewg's
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 Old 12-09-2008, 12:41 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Silo View Post
Oh, I used 1.0 and 1.2mm as well but these were too large (too low boost) as well - I think I told it backwards in my previous post regarding overshooting. I guess I would have needed something around 0.7mm but that was unavailable, hence the valve solution.

Ah okay, I see.

If you would do me a favor, I'd like to retry the larger orifices if you're willing. I'm wondering if your overshooting was due to poorly optimized PID parameters and not an overly large orifice. It could of course be as you say it is, but that would go against my experiences.

I'll tell you what, if you do ever want to play around with the boost control again I can whip up some PID parameters to start with. I'd really like to see you controlling that GT35R the way we intended!


Originally Posted by Grim View Post
can you clarify this please?sorry im a new to ewg's
Sure!

Basically all the Standback is doing to control boost is regulate a little spill valve. Both internal and external wastegates work by using a valve (the wastegate solenoid) to control the pressure at the wastegate diaphragm. Without it, and the wastegate would always open once it reaches spring pressure. So that spill valve gives us some ability to control boost above the wasteagte spring pressure. The Standback basically optimizes the solenoid position in order to adjust the wastegate position, which keeps the turbo spinning at a certain speed (or in this case pressure).

So the Standback will work on any boost control system so long as it uses a wastegate solenoid to control the pressure at the wastegate diaphragm. It doesn't matter if the xhaust gas is bypassed through the turbo (internal wastegate) or around the turbo (external wastegate).

I'm probably not doing a great job at explaining electronic boost control, which is well documented if you do a google search for it. But if you have more specific questions please do post them up.
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 Old 12-09-2008, 01:09 PM   #165
 
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Would it be possible to adjust the PID loop in the standback boost controller to use the stock solenoid on the upper chamber of the tial external wastegate... It just seems like it would be more logical to use the boost soleniod to hold the wastage closed in the way that the tial engineers intended, rather than bleed pressure out like the oem setup.. The soleniod would then be required to flow a much smaller volume air..



If that wouldn't work; does the standback have enough output current to directly drive an aftermarket solenoid like the perrin. I understand that it can be made to work with the oem solenoid, but I would much prefer to not have to deal with the pills..
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 Old 12-09-2008, 03:26 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by SSinstaller View Post
Would it be possible to adjust the PID loop in the standback boost controller to use the stock solenoid on the upper chamber of the tial external wastegate... It just seems like it would be more logical to use the boost soleniod to hold the wastage closed in the way that the tial engineers intended, rather than bleed pressure out like the oem setup.. The soleniod would then be required to flow a much smaller volume air..



If that wouldn't work; does the standback have enough output current to directly drive an aftermarket solenoid like the perrin. I understand that it can be made to work with the oem solenoid, but I would much prefer to not have to deal with the pills..
Yes you may! As long as the operation is the same (i.e. default position normally closed) then yes the Standback can control that solenoid. You'll notice on the SB configuration page you're able to change the drive frequency of the solenoid, and that's just in case someone wanted to go with an aftermarket unit like the Perrin.
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 Old 12-10-2008, 07:58 AM   #167
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so i reinstalled my ecu but haven't gotten a chance to hook up the standback. the full control is sweet. before i was spiking to 19 but now this morningi spiked at 22. since i don't have a dh since it's on the way could i just hook up the standback and zero out the maps and just use it like a boost controller cuz i can't really run the car since i hit boost cut
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 Old 12-10-2008, 08:16 AM   #168
 
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Originally Posted by jwdp54 View Post
so i reinstalled my ecu but haven't gotten a chance to hook up the standback. the full control is sweet. before i was spiking to 19 but now this morningi spiked at 22. since i don't have a dh since it's on the way could i just hook up the standback and zero out the maps and just use it like a boost controller cuz i can't really run the car since i hit boost cut
You can do that...as long as you have a boost gauge or something to read boost.
You know that the Standback will get rid of your boost cut as well...?
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 Old 12-10-2008, 08:23 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by jwdp54 View Post
so i reinstalled my ecu but haven't gotten a chance to hook up the standback. the full control is sweet. before i was spiking to 19 but now this morningi spiked at 22. since i don't have a dh since it's on the way could i just hook up the standback and zero out the maps and just use it like a boost controller cuz i can't really run the car since i hit boost cut
Hey congratulations on getting the SB/FCF in there! If you want to you're welcome to email me and I can send you back a map to get you started and get rid of that spiking. Hit me up at jgartenhaus@cp-e.com if you're interested.
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 Old 12-10-2008, 08:40 AM   #170
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sweet i have a boost gauge and yea i read somewhere that i can use it as a bcd. i'll be installing it tomorrow and see what happens. this weekend is looking to be actually nice so hopefully i'll be able to get a dyno session in next week to see where a sit.

Originally Posted by www.cp-e.com View Post
Hey congratulations on getting the SB/FCF in there! If you want to you're welcome to email me and I can send you back a map to get you started and get rid of that spiking. Hit me up at jgartenhaus@cp-e.com if you're interested.
i emailed you with some questions. thanks
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 Old 12-12-2008, 06:11 PM   #171
 
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Just for general interest/info...here is what my latest tune looks like.

Direct Link: Log 1


Direct Link: Log 2



My next task is to further lean out my AFRs to 12.5:1...and eliminate that slight knock I'm experiencing. Seems to have gotten worst with cooler weather. I had 0 knock when the weather was warm.
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 Old 12-13-2008, 03:41 AM   #172
 
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You might want to test running slightly RICHER rather then leaner and your knock might disappear! I have never seen a constant KR light yours (what scale are you using anyway? KR should be degrees...)
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 Old 12-13-2008, 06:31 AM   #173
 
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Originally Posted by Silo View Post
You might want to test running slightly RICHER rather then leaner and your knock might disappear! I have never seen a constant KR light yours (what scale are you using anyway? KR should be degrees...)
Max KR on these logs was 0.7; ranged between 0.4 to 0.7, on some other logs I did, I maxed out at 1.1 for a split second.

I want to see if knock gets worst or what as I try for 12.5 AFR... I had zero knock at a 11.5-12.0 AFR.

I thought about pulling some timing, but the knock is so random its hard to figure out where to pull timing from.
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Last edited by AutoXRacer; 12-15-2008 at 07:46 AM.
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 Old 12-15-2008, 07:51 AM   #174
 
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Well, I just pulled 0.5 degrees of timing across the 3K to 5.8K RPM range and almost made my KR disappear; that little bit below is 0.4.

Direct Link: Log 1 12-15-08


I am going to pull another 0.5 to see if I can make it totally disappear.
I'll be pretty much at stock timing after pulling the additional 0.5 degrees.
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 Old 12-15-2008, 08:19 AM   #175
 
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nice tuning!
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 Old 12-15-2008, 09:08 AM   #176
 
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Originally Posted by AutoXRacer View Post
Well, I just pulled 0.5 degrees of timing across the 3K to 5.8K RPM range and almost made my KR disappear; that little bit below is 0.4.

Direct Link: Log 1 12-15-08


I am going to pull another 0.5 to see if I can make it totally disappear.
I'll be pretty much at stock timing after pulling the additional 0.5 degrees.
Looks like you got the hang of the sb.
Meth would do you justice. Timing is where the power is.
Looks like you will need to go back to stock timing to completely eliminate the knock.
Add the meth, tune the afr to 12:5:1, add timing while keeping an eye on kr, data log then repeat.
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 Old 12-15-2008, 09:17 AM   #177
 
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I want to lean it out to 12.5:1, but the weather in FL keeps flip flopping...

Last week the lows were 50* and highs in the mid 60*s...this week, the highs are 85*!!!!!
I can't tune like this...

If I tune for a 12.5:1 at 75* then when the temps go down to 50s or lower, I'll be dangerously lean!!!!!
I think I'm going to stop here until the weather stabilizes...which I doubt will happen.

Anyway...

Hey I have a question to ask all you v2.51 SB software users, have you checked your MAF Transfer Function settings lately? I have mine set to +1 across the board. When I upload the tune and then read the SB, all is fine, but if I check it later, the next day, or even immediately after closing and reopening the software, it only shows 0-2.4 TPS VOLTs at +1 and 2.5-5.0 TPS VOLTS at 0...

Nothing that I do makes my MAF Transfer setting "stick" or stay. I wonder if its a software bug or hardware issue?

Anyone else experience this?
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 Old 12-15-2008, 05:23 PM   #178
 
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Originally Posted by AutoXRacer View Post

Hey I have a question to ask all you v2.51 SB software users, have you checked your MAF Transfer Function settings lately? I have mine set to +1 across the board. When I upload the tune and then read the SB, all is fine, but if I check it later, the next day, or even immediately after closing and reopening the software, it only shows 0-2.4 TPS VOLTs at +1 and 2.5-5.0 TPS VOLTS at 0...

Nothing that I do makes my MAF Transfer setting "stick" or stay. I wonder if its a software bug or hardware issue?

Anyone else experience this?
I think I noticed this as well but haven't read my tune off the SB lately but remember seeing it a couple times when I would download it to my PC only the top row would still have the value.....
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 Old 12-16-2008, 04:27 AM   #179
 
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Originally Posted by timv View Post
I think I noticed this as well but haven't read my tune off the SB lately but remember seeing it a couple times when I would download it to my PC only the top row would still have the value.....
I emailed Jordan and its a bug...he will have it fixed along with the color of the tables to reflex the SB maps.
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 Old 12-16-2008, 09:05 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by AutoXRacer View Post
I emailed Jordan and its a bug...he will have it fixed along with the color of the tables to reflex the SB maps.
Again, thanks for pointing that bug out to us! If you guys notice any other peculiarities please don't hesitate to let us know. If it's a bug in the software we'll address it immediately.

Here's Standback v2.52, which fixes the MAF XF table issue, and a couple other bugs with the ignition timing checks (i.e. so you don't exceed 3° between cells). And please remember to uninstall your old copy of the software before installing this new one!

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 Old 12-16-2008, 10:46 AM   #181
 
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SWEEEEEEEEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey Jordan, the colors are still off...
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 Old 12-16-2008, 11:09 AM   #182
 
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Originally Posted by www.cp-e.com View Post
Again, thanks for pointing that bug out to us! If you guys notice any other peculiarities please don't hesitate to let us know. If it's a bug in the software we'll address it immediately.

Here's Standback v2.52, which fixes the MAF XF table issue, and a couple other bugs with the ignition timing checks (i.e. so you don't exceed 3° between cells). And please remember to uninstall your old copy of the software before installing this new one!
When the software is launched the title bar and status bar both show v2.51. As well the version information in the program exe shows the v2.51.

Not a big deal to me, not sure if you want to correct.
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 Old 12-16-2008, 11:20 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by AutoXRacer View Post
SWEEEEEEEEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey Jordan, the colors are still off...
LOL!! One day we'll get that straightened out. I'll mention it to him again.

Originally Posted by Phantom View Post
When the software is launched the title bar and status bar both show v2.51. As well the version information in the program exe shows the v2.51.

Not a big deal to me, not sure if you want to correct.
Good call! I will mention this as well.

Thanks for the comments guys
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 Old 12-16-2008, 04:43 PM   #184
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this was probably answered already, but i ain't searching...
can we tune partial throttle? or just wot?
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 Old 12-16-2008, 05:50 PM   #185
 
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Originally Posted by phillyb View Post
this was probably answered already, but i ain't searching...
can we tune partial throttle? or just wot?
Yep, you can tune from 0 to 5.0 TPS (throttle position sensor) voltage...
From idle to WOT...
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 Old 12-16-2008, 05:55 PM   #186
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word, i mean...i know that i can make adjustments to the charts at partial throttle, but on the first page in this thread, jordan says to make adjustments to wot maps...and talked about the open loop...i'm curious to know about the reasoning behind that
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 Old 12-16-2008, 06:31 PM   #187
 
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Originally Posted by phillyb View Post
word, i mean...i know that i can make adjustments to the charts at partial throttle, but on the first page in this thread, jordan says to make adjustments to wot maps...and talked about the open loop...i'm curious to know about the reasoning behind that
You can tune part throttle all day, but the ECM will eventually adjust to any chages made in parts of the map where your mostly running around in closed loop..
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 Old 12-17-2008, 07:55 AM   #188
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i hate missouri weather. it's snowed for the past 2 days and i haven't got to mess around with this.
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 Old 12-17-2008, 10:31 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by SSinstaller View Post
You can tune part throttle all day, but the ECM will eventually adjust to any chages made in parts of the map where your mostly running around in closed loop..
ok, that makes sense and that explains that jordan meant. my gathering is that we have more control over the open loop, eh?
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 Old 12-17-2008, 12:44 PM   #190
 
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Originally Posted by phillyb View Post
ok, that makes sense and that explains that jordan meant. my gathering is that we have more control over the open loop, eh?
Yep, when in closed loop the ECM is monitoring the O2's looking for a target value, and will eventually tune out(Via the fuel trims) any fueling changes you make tha move the afr's away from it's target AFR , in open loop the ECM just runs off a preprogrammed map and doesn't monitor the AFR's, so it doesn't notice fueling changes you make... As far as I know any timing changes you make will not be tuned out, so you don't needx to woory about closed/open loop with your timing maps..
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 Old 12-18-2008, 02:56 PM   #191
 
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Here are 2 of my Datalogs they were eith SB zero out and set at 17.5 psi My mods are CPE catted DP, RPMC Turbo Inlet, Denso ITV22, Cobb SRI, Cobb FMIC. Any tips on whaere I should begin tuning I'm looking for a safe tune around 12 to 12.2 any tips??


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 Old 12-18-2008, 03:48 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by racersir View Post
Here are 2 of my Datalogs they were eith SB zero out and set at 17.5 psi My mods are CPE catted DP, RPMC Turbo Inlet, Denso ITV22, Cobb SRI, Cobb FMIC. Any tips on whaere I should begin tuning I'm looking for a safe tune around 12 to 12.2 any tips??

Here, give this map a shot (v2.5).

Here are the changes I made to it:

Boost - Set to 17.5psi per your request, and tweaked the PID parameters

Ignition advance - Changed the strategy to pull timing relative to boost pressure. Now the SB will pull a degree of timing when you hit 10psi, and will then pull slightly more timing if you exceed your boost target by any great margin. This should get rid of the knock you were seeing.

Fueling - I only pulled a little bit of fuel out after ~5200rpm because up until that point your AFR looks pretty solid. You'll be a little leaner up top, but I'd like to see another log to make sure that it isn't too lean.

So load this tune in there and give it another shot. If you can grab me another log like the one above I'll be happy to make some more tweaks for you. Also, let me know if you notice a difference in the boost control. I hope you like it!

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 Old 12-18-2008, 03:54 PM   #193
 
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OK, a couple of requests... Can you zoom into the AFR curve? Could you make your scale from 6.0 to 21.0? Also, let me know what is the max KR that you are experiencing.
Also, zoom into the time line so that your plot shows the following:

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 Old 12-18-2008, 07:34 PM   #194
 
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Originally Posted by www.cp-e.com View Post
Here, give this map a shot (v2.5).

Here are the changes I made to it:

Boost - Set to 17.5psi per your request, and tweaked the PID parameters

Ignition advance - Changed the strategy to pull timing relative to boost pressure. Now the SB will pull a degree of timing when you hit 10psi, and will then pull slightly more timing if you exceed your boost target by any great margin. This should get rid of the knock you were seeing.

Fueling - I only pulled a little bit of fuel out after ~5200rpm because up until that point your AFR looks pretty solid. You'll be a little leaner up top, but I'd like to see another log to make sure that it isn't too lean.

So load this tune in there and give it another shot. If you can grab me another log like the one above I'll be happy to make some more tweaks for you. Also, let me know if you notice a difference in the boost control. I hope you like it!
Could you explain what the changes to the PID parameters do or help with?
Also, can this timing strategy be used for anyone?

I have right now, Standback 2 PNP, HKS Step colder plugs, CPE CAI, CPE FMIC, HKS SSQV CPE kit, and RPMC turbo inlet...
I have fuel pump internals to install also....
I will be getting a catted down pipe next...
Right now I have my map set at 18psi and the stock PID's and my logs look pretty good but just curious what some of these tweaks may do differently.....

Just looking for more info, tips, etc.....
Thanks....
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 Old 12-19-2008, 05:27 AM   #195
 
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Originally Posted by timv View Post
Could you explain what the changes to the PID parameters do or help with?
Also, can this timing strategy be used for anyone?

I have right now, Standback 2 PNP, HKS Step colder plugs, CPE CAI, CPE FMIC, HKS SSQV CPE kit, and RPMC turbo inlet...
I have fuel pump internals to install also....
I will be getting a catted down pipe next...
Right now I have my map set at 18psi and the stock PID's and my logs look pretty good but just curious what some of these tweaks may do differently.....

Just looking for more info, tips, etc.....
Thanks....
See post #13

The boost Control PIDs will do various things:
-Kp = is the GAIN setting. Kind of like a bass/treble knob on a radio...
-KD = will adjust how fast you want your boost to build...the urgency of boost.
-Ki = will control/fine tune spiking and maintaining target boost.

Frankly, you have to play with each one to get a grasp on them...change one at a time and make small 0.25 increment changes.

My experience with these PIDS have been:
-The higher Kp value (30.000 default), the more gain.
-The higher KD (100.000 default), the faster boost will build; but might affect/induce spiking/over-shoot.
-And finally Ki (00.090 default), the higher, the tighter control you'll have over spiking.

Sometimes, the higher the value won't necessarily be better and will have the opposite effect. Thats why its best to get a passenger and have them change the values-one PID at a time- and see how your boost reacts differently.

As far as timing, my method has been that if I see knock, I will pull 0.5 degrees of timing in that region if its consistent. The reason I say consistent is because I can do two data logs back to back and KR will be totally different; usually with small spikes.
If you have KR thats spread out for more than a second or two, then you need to pull timing in that RPM range.

I hope that helps explain things.
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 Old 12-19-2008, 06:08 AM   #196
 
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Gerald Here's the log with zoom. Max KR has been 1.1, I'm going to try out the map jordan sent me today




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 Old 12-19-2008, 06:28 AM   #197
 
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So if my settings are:

Kp: 30
Kd: 200
Ki: .275

and im spiking to 20psi and holding 17 i would just jack up Ki to say .35 and my spikes should subside a little bit?

I'd really liike to put the Kd back down to say 150 or 175 but it spikes bad.
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 Old 12-19-2008, 06:32 AM   #198
 
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Whats going on at 4500 RPM? There is that dip in your AFR?

My personal method takes a little longer than others. But personally, I would work on the 5000 RPM range to fuel cut. I would start with pulling 0.5 to 1.0 of fuel and see what that does to your AFRs. And take it from there, progressively working your way to 3000 RPM.

Since Jordan sent you a tune, upload that one and do another log. Post it up just like this one, but can you post the direct link too? Its hard to see the image; kind of small. Sorry for being so demanding... LOL

And if you can, once your all zoomed in and all, can you put a red line with 1 for thickness (it will already have a 1 in there, but hit the down arrow after you change the color; you'll see it gets narrower) right at 12.0 AFR...? Just makes it a little easier to read.
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 Old 12-19-2008, 06:37 AM   #199
 
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Originally Posted by jhershorin View Post
So if my settings are:

Kp: 30
Kd: 200
Ki: .275

and im spiking to 20psi and holding 17 i would just jack up Ki to say .35 and my spikes should subside a little bit?

I'd really liike to put the Kd back down to say 150 or 175 but it spikes bad.
My current settings are:

Kp: 30
KD: 350
Ki: .400

I spike 20, hold at 18-19P and decrease to 16-17 till redline at 58* degrees...warmer the temps, the less I hold till redline; at 78-80*, I'll hold 15 PSI. Also, the colder it is, the more/higher I'll spike. I lower my target PSI to 18 if temps are below 60 (40-60*).

I should lower my KD though...that would help with spiking.

Your plan sounds good!!!! Give it a try and report back!!
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 Old 12-19-2008, 06:42 AM   #200
 
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But the lower the Kd that faster the turbo spools the more it will over shoot. God i miss my externally gated 35r.
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