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 Old 11-19-2017, 05:03 PM   #1
 
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Default VE Tables and upgraded manifolds

Hey guy's, I'm planning to upgrade my intake and exhaust manifolds soon. Have you guys been modifying the VE table at all? I can't find much info on how to modify it, or if it's even truly necessary to tweak it when upgrading to better flowing manifolds.
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 Old 12-02-2017, 02:08 PM   #2
 
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Ofcourse the volumetric efficiency of the engine will increase with higher flowing manifolds and from what I've read the VE table should be tweaked when upgrading the manifolds. I'm just trying to see if anyone has any experience tuning with these installed. Like is there anything to look out for such as running lean, boost spikes, etc? I read that if there are certain rpm/load regions where there is a lean spike, increasing the value in that region in the VE tables is a good place to start. Thanks for any info!
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 Old 12-02-2017, 08:44 PM   #3
 
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Solely my opinion, but if your MAFCAL is spot on, you should be able to tune the VE tables using the same method as a MAFCAL. Albeit a lot more complex/time consuming.
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 Old 12-03-2017, 09:22 PM   #4
 
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Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
Solely my opinion, but if your MAFCAL is spot on, you should be able to tune the VE tables using the same method as a MAFCAL. Albeit a lot more complex/time consuming.
So do you mean using the multiplier obtained from Actual AFR / Target AFR, and multiplying it by the values in the VE Table at a given load/rpm region?

This seems like a good idea

I figure I'll start by enriching my maf curve slightly for safety when testing the new manifolds.

Then I'll do a maf cal with OL fuel trims disabled.

If there are any abnormal variances in actual AFR, I'll do what I can to the maf curve to meet targets.

If it gets to a point where corrections cause the maf curve to become un-smooth, and still not meet AFR targets, then I suppose I could multiply the values in the VE Table in that specific load/rpm region with the same maf cal multiplier and see if it increases or decreases fueling.

Ideally I'd like to only need to make changes to the maf curve and not have to touch the VE tables at all, but it's pretty much pure experimentation at this point lol, and I stored the car for winter, so I gotta wait until spring.
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 Old 12-03-2017, 10:35 PM   #5
 
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I'm not entirely sure if messing with the VE table is even necessary. The MAF tells the ECU how much fuel to put in. Whether 50% VE or 100% VE, X amount of air gets Y amount of fuel. If you've increased the flow of the intake or exhaust manifold and/or the head with porting, the MAF will see that increase and input the appropriate amount of fuel.

With a MAF, are VE tables even necessary? Perhaps the VE tables are an emergency backup for when the MAF fails? Like a limp mode lookup table.

I really hope someone who knows will chime in before we get too far out of whack.
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 Old 12-04-2017, 12:02 AM   #6
 
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The volumetric efficiency has to do with the way the air enters the engine and not with the MAF calibration.

So changing any of the manifolds does not require any VE tables changes, however changing the cams does.
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 Old 12-04-2017, 05:16 AM   #7
 
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Googled and skimmed a few tuning threads. It seems my original thought is more correct. If your MAFCAL is good, use fuel trims to adjust VE.
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 Old 12-04-2017, 05:33 AM   #8
 
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Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
Googled and skimmed a few tuning threads. It seems my original thought is more correct. If your MAFCAL is good, use fuel trims to adjust VE.
Awesome, I'll give it a try if a maf cal doesn't work. Thanks!
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 Old 12-05-2017, 06:40 AM   #9
 
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Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
Googled and skimmed a few tuning threads. It seems my original thought is more correct. If your MAFCAL is good, use fuel trims to adjust VE.
According to this logic, deleting the VCTS requires the same approach, because at least in the low coolant temp/low load/low rpm the speed of the air entering the ports differs.

But again, because the volumetric efficiency refers to the amount of air that makes its way into the cylinders messing with the VE tables is not required.
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 Old 12-05-2017, 08:28 AM   #10
 
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The MAF is always "on" and, if it's calibrated properly, no amount of mods at the engine should affect the way it measures the air. Changes to the airflow pattern immediately before, after, and/or at the MAF sensor would be the only reason to do a new MAFCAL.

With a good MAFCAL, any mod that changes your fuel trims means the VE table needs to be messaged a little.
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Puppy Power tuning temporarily suspended.
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2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015)
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1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)

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 Old 12-05-2017, 09:20 AM   #11
 
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Originally Posted by mituc View Post
According to this logic, deleting the VCTS requires the same approach, because at least in the low coolant temp/low load/low rpm the speed of the air entering the ports differs.

But again, because the volumetric efficiency refers to the amount of air that makes its way into the cylinders messing with the VE tables is not required.
Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
The MAF is always "on" and, if it's calibrated properly, no amount of mods at the engine should affect the way it measures the air. Changes to the airflow pattern immediately before, after, and/or at the MAF sensor would be the only reason to do a new MAFCAL.

With a good MAFCAL, any mod that changes your fuel trims means the VE table needs to be messaged a little.
Ok so this is going to take some testing once the manifolds get installed It makes sense that the maf sensor determines how much fuel is required. But, if there are lean spots during a pull that are difficult to cure with corrections to the maf curve, I have a feeling making adjustments to the VE table values in that load/rpm region will help. This is just speculation though.
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 Old 12-05-2017, 05:09 PM   #12
 
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Originally Posted by BuddySpeed3 View Post
But, if there are lean spots during a pull that are difficult to cure with corrections to the maf curve, I have a feeling making adjustments to the VE table values in that load/rpm region will help. This is just speculation though.
Post a log. And yes, this is just a speculation and those lean spots are caused by something else.
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 Old 12-06-2017, 05:13 PM   #13
 
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Originally Posted by mituc View Post
Post a log. And yes, this is just a speculation and those lean spots are caused by something else.
Ok thanks man! I'll post some logs come spring time when I put the car back on the road.
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